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So here's my idea.
Say a player wanted to play as a character created using the Eidolon rules, or something similar.
Sort of a "Build your own Character" with a heavy slant towards building monsters.
How many points would you need to give him to build with, and what sorts of things would you need to change to make it work?
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He'd need a race and a class. this means you'd have to build a eidolon race first, followed by an evolutions class. Alternatively, you could let him play an unfettered eidolon, and just let him advance per the rules in the Bestiary and Bestiary 3.
Or you could let him roleplay an eidolon, and have his summoner be his cohort...
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So here's my idea.
Say a player wanted to play as a character created using the Eidolon rules, or something similar.
Sort of a "Build your own Character" with a heavy slant towards building monsters.
How many points would you need to give him to build with, and what sorts of things would you need to change to make it work?
I would have the player use the synthesist summoner if you wanted him to be his eidolon.
I the player just wants to play a monstrous character you could let him build one using the Advanced Race Guide and deciding on what point total to allow him. If you do this make sure his points are around the same as the other pcs' races. My gaming group all made 41 point characters for a Way of the Wicked campaign because the DM wanted us to be at the same point total as the Drow Noble that was in our group.
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My gaming group all made 41 point characters for a Way of the Wicked campaign because the DM wanted us to be at the same point total as the Drow Noble that was in our group.
But... Why?
But like I said, just let him play an eidolon with the summoner as his slave, instead of the other way around. A familiar with ''his'' witch could be fun too.
The Mutationist was posted here a few days ago. Uses mutations (evolutions). A bit rough/needs work, but worth checking out.
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I was thinking it would be good as a sortof catch-all "build whatever monster you want, and progress as a monster" type thing.
Allow them to use it to design monstrous PCs of whatever they can imagine, and progress as such.
Add in some more evolution options later and it could become a point-buy "build your own class" type thing, which could also be cool.
But the idea in this case was to allow someone to "Be" an eidolon, without them Being (or having) a summoner to go with them.
Good Catch on the Unfettered Eidolon. I forgot that existed. That should be useful to help gauge the number of points such a character should have.
_Okay let me write this little essay again on a more reliable machine:
I think you should use a standard eidolon but instead of going by summoner level, have the eidolon be the highest level eidolon of equal hit dice to the party level, so for example for a 12 level party have an eidolon of 16th summoner level.
as far as above level 15 play goes, you would have to logically continue the eidolon table to about level 27 or 28.
This would go as follows for each level
Hit dice +3/4
Evolution points +1 or +2
Str/Dex bonus +1 and armor bonus +2 at every 2 or 3 levels
Max attacks +1 at every 6 levels
For the exact "rhythm" of these increases just compare it to how it went on previous levels.
As far as +1 to an ability score of your choice, BAB, skills, feats and base saves go those are tied to the number of hit dice anyway, so if he has the same number of regular feats as all the other charcters, the same number of skill points as a bard of the same level and intelligence, same bab as an equal level fighter and the same good and bad base saves as every one else, you're doing it right.
Then there are the various special abilities of the eidolon, he should definitely get those and perhaps the link and share spells abilities he can "assign" to one other character in a 1 minute ritual. So that that character can make use of both of those abilities if they wish.
Lastly of course he should get the same Wealth as everyone else in the party and have a favored class bonus for his eidolon hit dice as well.
Oh and give him the native subtype so he cannot just be banished.
^ This ^
Just progress it in the same way it progresses itself. Maybe use HD as character level? Or you could do average-party-level=HD like Threeshades said.
But that does also present the issue of which level-HD thing you choose, like do you choose effective summoner level 19th or 20th when you have a 15 HD Eidolon? I would probably choose the lowest one if the Eidolon needs nerfing or the highest one if it needs buffing.
I might actually see if I can play one next time my character dies or something, might be fun. If I can you can be sure I'll post results!
i would honestly go for the highest. I forgot to mention it this time around, didnt i? I mentioned that in the original post.
You lose a LOT with the missing action economy, spellcasting and extra hitpoints of the summoner
So if we were to do that, then here are the things about 15 HD on the Eidolon page (just so you don't have to think it yourself. It's quicker for everyone this way). I'm doing as an extension of the eidolon table, not as just a HD increase thing.
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Summoner Level | HD | BAB | Good Saves | Bad Saves | Skills | Feats | Armour Bonus | Str/Dex Bonus | Evolution Pool | Max Attacks | Special
21 | 16 | +16 | 10 | 5 | 64 | 8 | 16 | 8 | 27 | 7 | Ability Score increase
22 | 17 | +17 | 10 | 5 | 68 | 9 | 18 | 9 | 28 | 7 | -
23 | 18 | +18 | 11 | 6 | 72 | 9 | 18 | 9 | 29 | 7 | -
24 | 18 | +18 | 11 | 6 | 72 | 9 | 18 | 9 | 31 | 8 | -
25 | 19 | +19 | 11 | 6 | 76 | 10 | 19 | 10 | 32 | 8 | -
26 | 20 | +20 | 12 | 6 | 80 | 10 | 19 | 10 | 33 | 8 | Ability Score increase
I included the two 18 HD levels so that people could see which one is more balanced, though, the difference is only 2 evolution points, so I'd probably go with the higher one.
Hell, I might just write this up as a class-like thing, might be easier that way. It's just full progression BAB, normal "good" and "bad" saves, it's skill ranks are 6+int per HD(level), normal odd-level feats like every single class, and normal stat increases. It's only "Class abilities" equivalents are the armour bonus through to the special things. Yeah, I'll probably write a full 20 level class-thing to get rid of some numbers.
Ok here it is. Things in square brackets [] are things I have yet to add in or are just my thoughts on what I might change. The "class" is basically what "class" an eidolon would be in an adventure. I would say that only eidolons can take it and eidolons have to take it.
Merry Christmas:
(And yes, I will be using this in one of my adventures (hopefully))
Eidlon
[Insert Flavour text here]
[Insert Role here]
Alignement: Any
Hit Die: d10
Starting Wealth: 1d6 x 10 (average 35gp.) / None?
Requirements: Race: Eidolon[?] [This would be a given methinks, may get rid of for less text and stuff]
Class Skills
The eidolon's class skills are Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Fly (Dex), Knowledge (planes) (Int), Perception (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Stealth (Dex). In addition, at 1st level, the eidolon can choose 4 additional skills to be class skills.
Skill Ranks per Level: 6 + Int modifier.
Tabel: Eidolon
Level | Base Attack Bonus | Good Saves | Bad Saves | Speical | Armour Bonus | Str/Dex Bonus | Evolution Pool | Max Attacks
1 | +1 | +2 | +0 | Darkvision, multiattack[?], native | +0 | +0 | 3 | 3
2 | +2 | +3 | +0 | Evasion | +2 | +1 | 4 | 3
3 | +3 | +3 | +1 | - | +2 | +1 | 7 | 4
4 | +4 | +4 | +1 | - | +4 | +2 | 8 | 4
5 | +5 | +4 | +1 | - | +4 | +2 | 9 | 4
6 | +6 | +5 | +2 | - | +6 | +3 | 11 | 4
7 | +7 | +5 | +2 | Multiattack[?] | +6 | +3 | 13 | 5
8 | +8 | +6 | +2 | - | +8 | +4 | 14 | 5
9 | +9 | +6 | +3 | - | +8 | +4 | 16 | 5
10 | +10 | +7 | +3 | - | +10 | +5 | 17 | 5
11 | +11 | +7 | +3 | Improved evasion | +10 | +5 | 19 | 6
12 | +12 | +8 | +4 | - | +10[12] | +5[6] | 21 | 6
13 | +13 | +8 | +4 | - | +12 | +6 | 22 | 6
14 | +14 | +9 | +4 | - | +14 | +7 | 23 | 6
15 | +15 | +9 | +5 | - | +14 | +7 | 26 | 7
16 | +16 | +10 | +5 | - | +16 | +8 | 27 | 7
17 | +17 | +10 | +5 | - | +16 | +8 | 28 | 7
18 | +18 | +11 | +6 | - | +18 | +9 | 31 | 8[7]
19 | +19 | +11 | +6 | - | +18 | +9 | 32 | 8
20 | +20 | +12 | +6 | - | +20 | +10 | 33 | 8
Class Features
The following are class features for the eidolon
Weapon and Armour Proficiency
Eidolons are proficient with only their natural attacks and not proficient with any armour or shields.
BAB
Eidolons do not gain additional attacks using their natural weapons for a high base attack bonus.
Good/Bad Saves
An eidolon possesses two good saving throws and one bad saving throw, determined by the eidolon's base form.
Armour Bonus
This bonus may be split between an armour bonus and a natural armour bonus. This number is modified by the eidolon's base form and some options available through it's evolution pool. [An eidolon cannot wear armour of any kind, as the armour interferes with the summoner's connection to the eidolon, but since it doesn't have a summoner, this rule might not apply.]
Str/Dex Bonus
Add this modifier to the eidolon's Strength and Dexterity scores, as determined by its base form. Some options available through the eidolon's evolution pool might modify these scores.
Evolution Pool
The value given in this column is the total number of points in the eidolon’s evolution pool. Points from this pool can be spent on a wide variety of modifications and upgrades that add new abilities, attacks, and powers to the eidolon. Whenever the eidolon gains a level, the number in this pool increases and the eidolon can spend these points to change their abilities. These choices are not set. The eidolon can change them whenever it gains a level.
Max. Attacks
This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks. This does not include attacks made with weapons.
Multiattack
An eidolon gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has 3 or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the requisite 3 or more natural attacks (or it is reduced to less than 3 attacks), the eidolon instead gains a second attack with one of its natural weapons, albeit at a –5 penalty. If the eidolon later gains 3 or more natural attacks, it loses this additional attack and instead gains Multiattack.
Native
An eidolon gains the Native subtype if it does not already have it.
Darkvision (Ex)
An eidolon has darkvision out to a range of 60 feet.
Evasion (Ex)
At 2nd level and higher, if an eidolon is subjected to an attack that normally allows a Reflex save for half damage, it takes no damage if it makes a successful saving throw.
Improved Evasion (Ex)
At 11th level and higher, when subjected to an attack that allows a Reflex saving throw for half damage, an eidolon takes no damage if it makes a successful saving throw and only half damage if the saving throw fails.
Eidolon Base Forms
Each eidolon has one of three (four if using Ultimate Magic) base forms that determines its starting size, speed, AC, attacks, and ability scores. All natural attacks are made using the eidolon’s full base attack bonus unless otherwise noted (such as in the case of secondary attacks). Eidolon attacks add the eidolon’s Strength modifier to the damage roll, unless it is its only attack, in which case it adds 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier. These base forms also note any free evolutions that base form possesses. The bonuses from these free evolutions are already factored into the starting statistics. Alternatively, any one of these base forms can be used to make a Small eidolon. If the eidolon is Small, it gains a +2 bonus to its Dexterity score. It also takes a –4 penalty to its Strength and a –2 penalty to its Constitution. It also gains a +1 size bonus to its AC and attack rolls, a –1 penalty to its CMB and CMD scores, a +2 bonus on its Fly skill checks, and a +4 bonus on its Stealth skill checks. Reduce the damage of all of its attacks by one step (1d6 becomes 1d4, 1d4 becomes 1d3). If this choice is made, the eidolon can be made Medium whenever the eidolon can change its evolution pool.
Ultimate Magic introduced a fourth base form: aquatic. The aquatic base form follows all of the normal rules for base forms.
[Insert Base Forms here]
Evolutions
Each eidolon receives a number of evolution points that can be spent to give the eidolon new abilities, powers, and other upgrades. These abilities, called evolutions, can be changed whenever the eidolon gains a new level, but they are otherwise set. Some evolutions require that the eidolon have a specific base form or the eidolon be of a specific level before they can be chosen. A number of evolutions grant the eidolon additional natural attacks. Natural attacks listed as primary are made using the eidolon’s full base attack bonus and add the eidolon’s Strength modifier on damage rolls. Natural attacks listed as secondary are made using the eidolon’s base attack bonus – 5 and add 1/2 the eidolon’s Strength modifier on damage rolls (if positive). If the eidolon only has a single natural attack, the attack is made using its full base attack bonus and it adds 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier on damage rolls made with that attack, regardless of the attack’s type.
Evolutions are grouped by their cost in evolution points. Evolution points cannot be saved. All of the points must be spent whenever the eidolon gains a level. Unless otherwise noted, each evolution can only be selected once.
[Insert Evolutions here. (Almost) Every mention of the word "Summoner" is replaced with "Eidolon".]
[Maybe show the eidolon models here, so that players can easily base their eidolon around a specific thing, that's if they want to though.]
[I'm thinking that an eidolon can do one hour of uninterrupted meditation to change its evolution points, and at each level it can change its form. Or maybe it can do a day of uninterrupted meditation to change its form and evolution points?]
[Might change things around a bit like making the armour bonus improve to +12 at 11th level and str/dex to +6 at 11th so it's tidier, and have an actual rhythm to how the abilities advance. Might leave evolution points as is (for now). If I do change them it might be 2 evolution points per level or something similar. Might also tidy max attacks so that 18th is 7.]
[Will probably change evolution points to have more of a rhythm, like 2/4/6/8/9/11/13/15/17/18… or something like that.]
Hope you liked it! And I may or may not make a thread about this if I revisit it or something. Might just even make one today or something.
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Say a player wanted to play as a character created using the Eidolon rules, or something similar.
I believe Pathfinder Society will be seeing something like this in the near future.
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Hmm. Yeah. "This is a private group. To join you must be a registered site member and request group membership."
I don't see myself getting a monthly adventure a week subscription, given that I don't see myself getting the $10/month of use out of it in the near future.
I'm not looking for modules for my current campaign right now. Maybe down the road, but not in the next month.
I'd also be more inclined to shell out $10/month if we met and gamed once a week instead of once a month.
Talk about synchronicity this week with this thread and this thread: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qi0m?Mutationist.
As it happens, a class based on this concept is being playtested by Adventureaweek right now. There is more to the class than just evolutions though. The playtest began a few weeks ago, and features other classes/archetypes/PrCs. If anyone is interested, here is a link (although you may have to register with the site), and seek out the Underworld Classes and Races books: http://adventureaweek.com/groups/aaw-playtesters/
I hope this doesn’t sound like advertising!
Already linked to that Mutationist class in my post Upthread...
While on the subject of evolutions and evolutionists, I'm also working on a Symbiont base class - you can read about it in my blog post here: