Hi all so i have a character who drank from the shrine of lamastu in the catacombs of wrath... so some dex and int damage. But the rules seem abit vague on waters of lamashtu "and they are sent mad"... looking at the maddness and insanity rulez it metions that the individual needs the stat to hit 0 before a insanity happens..
Im not sure what to do here. Is this a game ender for this character? Or is this just a curse that the character might recover from..eg remove curse. Did anyone else have characters do this? What did you do?
Any guidance would be great
John
I didn't have players that stupid.
But I'd not treat it as a curse. Treat it as Madness. They mucked about with ancient magics. They have to suffer as a result.
The description in the Inner Sea World Guide is just Int and Dex damage; the Int damage represents the insanity, and the Dex damage represents the physical deformity.
However, as Tangent101 said, the PRD has rules on Madness for characters who suffer massive Int loss.
Here's the link to fun stuff you can do with this. Yes, the "official" rules say a stat of 0, but follow up with:
"At your option, a creature can run the risk of going insane under extremely unusual situations, even when his mental ability scores are unharmed."
So it's up to you whether or not to inflict madness on the PC. Considering his or her actions already, I'd say that's a definite, "Yes!"
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Have him/her sent off to Habe's Sanatorium, too!
Ruyan.
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I'll echo NobodyHome's suggestion that you go ahead and give the PC an insanity - you're being "blessed" by Lamashtu, so she'd totally want to make some changes. Given what's coming up in the story, I'd lean towards either multiple personality disorder or psychosis. That way, when people start dying in Sandpoint, the PCs have an additional possible suspect - the crazy guy! Even if they've gotten him cured by then, how do they know that he hasn't had a relapse?
I'll echo NobodyHome's suggestion that you go ahead and give the PC an insanity - you're being "blessed" by Lamashtu, so she'd totally want to make some changes. Given what's coming up in the story, I'd lean towards either multiple personality disorder or psychosis. That way, when people start dying in Sandpoint, the PCs have an additional possible suspect - the crazy guy! Even if they've gotten him cured by then, how do they know that he hasn't had a relapse?
And depending on the severity you could make it as subtle as he has an emphatic pull towards Nualia and her plan. He sees where it's a good thing. Then toss him some XP to play it up. Don't really encourage PVP or even real treachery just enough to make the other players wonder and question what's going on with that one guy.
Thanks all,
Tangent.. what can i say pc can do some crazy things but i also think i need to make a point at making them think before they act which i think they will be less likely to make stupid mistakes.
Great suggestion noBodyshome and misroi, i think i might give her a multi personality with the personallity being a follower of lemeshtu perhaps a minor demon or monster.
I guess the main problem is i dont want this to become to intrusive into the campain so a visit to Habes might be a good thing... but i almost think that it might be better for them to roll up another character...
Would a remove Curse make them recover fully? I would think finding someone in sandpoint who could help them might be hard...
Remove Curse should not remove this problem. I believe there are Madness rules somewhere in the Pathfinder rules - maybe the Complete Campaign rules. Greater Restoration might do the trick, but I'm not sure. Heal might as well.
I'm going to disagree slightly with Tangent here. The insanity rules list Restoration for a partial cure, then Greater Restoration, Heal, Limited Wish, Miracle, or Wish to cure insanity. So he's dead on that by the rules, Remove Curse wouldn't help.
But if you're going to specifically point the insanity towards helping followers of Lamashtu, I'm going to argue that there's a bit more in there than simple insanity. Remove Curse, Dispel Evil, or even something really silly like Consecrating the insane PC should at least break the tie to Lamashtu -- the PC is still insane, but no longer has a tendency to assist the enemy at every turn.
Just my $0.02.
I'm going to disagree slightly with Tangent here. The insanity rules list Restoration for a partial cure, then Greater Restoration, Heal, Limited Wish, Miracle, or Wish to cure insanity. So he's dead on that by the rules, Remove Curse wouldn't help.
But if you're going to specifically point the insanity towards helping followers of Lamashtu, I'm going to argue that there's a bit more in there than simple insanity. Remove Curse, Dispel Evil, or even something really silly like Consecrating the insane PC should at least break the tie to Lamashtu -- the PC is still insane, but no longer has a tendency to assist the enemy at every turn.
Just my $0.02.
It would be simpler and more in line with not causing in game issues to not make them split time with a Lamashtu minion. There's no reason for them to be assisting the enemy at every turn. Insanity is not predictable. Simply inform the player that they are going to get pro-Lamashtu thoughts going forward (no need to tell them what they need to do to get healed), and have them play it out.
That way the player is picking the poison, rather than being controlled by your directions and thoughts on how they should play it. Also by not forcing the player to mess with the party, a smart player can get a lot of color out of it without disrupting the party or game.
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Waters of Lamashtu really isn't that bad-
here's a link to the official spell- link
It mentions that long term exposure can have awful consequences, but one drink will pass.
Of course, if this is a specially consecrated area, there might be other side effects. For example, in the module Broken Chains, contact with an unholy pool of it also requires a DC 14 will save or alignment moves a step toward evil. It does note that break enchantment vs CL 9 will remove. Not a great module, but some useful bits.
I personally wouldn't take it much further than that. A visit to the asylum might be a fun side trek though.
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Madness and insanity is problematic for many reasons. Dramatically, if it's not handled properly, it can remove the player's ability to control his character. For some people, that's not a problem, and they'll welcome the challenge to roleplay a mentally unstable character. For others, though, they'll complain that they're denied the chance to play their character as they want to. I would be careful in applying debilitating and, at this level of play, permanent disabilities upon a character without a good gut feeling on how the player will react.
But, let's go ahead and assume that the player will be down with this new complication. How best to create conflict? I like the idea that because he drank from the waters, Lamashtu was given a chance to poison his mind, so maybe he's actually suffering from demonic possession in addition to his insanity. Maybe that psychotic whispering he hears in his mind isn't from some imagined phantom at all, but an actual malevolent presence. It'd be nascent most of the time, and wouldn't detect as evil unless it were taking an active role in directing the host, but it wants to wreak havoc in the mortal world. Maybe it bides its time, hiding its presence while it whispers for the host to do things in secret - a few cats go missing over a week in Sandpoint, and they're eventually found ripped and mangled in the smugglers' tunnels. The host isn't exactly aware of this, but he also hasn't been sleeping well, and if someone watches, they'll find him leaving his room and prowling the streets for some poor animal to mutilate. As this demon is in service to the Mother of Monsters, she has a vested interest in Nualia's success, so if they get far enough in Thistletop without discovering the rider's presence, the demon inside will try to take active control and aid in taking down the party.
How to get rid of it? Remove curse sounds like a good start. Consecrated areas likely give the host some discomfort. More powerful spells would probably work as well.
Awesome guys...
I think i really dont want this to be end of character situation. I like the idea that the character has no idea that insanity has set in. But i think my player might be into the fact that if i handed him a note saying that. No your a palidin of desna or a folower of lemshtu or a goblin...might be a cool adidtion to the session... i almost think lemeshtu might embrace the chaos for the situation...
I like what you say misroi. i think sutltey is the key here. I might suggest something is wrong for now but i think once the next chapter comes i might be nice to suggest that the character might be involved in the skin murders. thisletop might see some pointers to her trasformation.
Be very careful, and let the player take the lead. Suggest and guide, but the player has to make it their own, or you will simply be taking over the players character.
I'd start out with a discussion with them. Ask them how they'd play it, and then work with them from there. Make sure the player knows there is an out, and probably what it is. Help the player find the bandwidth of insanity that you want them to play in, but let them decide when/where/what the insanity does.
If played well, you get a real wildcard in the campaign, and the player gets to have a good time with it. Play it wrong, and you'll get an unhappy player, and others fearful of you taking over their character.
hi Ahlmzhad
well the party was pritty keen to straight away put there efforts behind curing the player. so i found the waters of lemashtu to be a fairly overpowered and rather incoviniet addition to the game. i would have rather the waters killed them outright.
the unfortunate thing is now this has taken the pcs focus away from thistel top and more on the focus of the party memenber. i really think this was an oversight on the design of the module. perhaps a lesser waters of lemashtu might have been a better option. either way some sort of direction should have been given within the module for this event i feel.
what i have done what you suggested i have talked to the player about the addition of a extra personality. but i feel the insanity rules are not suited in this instance. i feel like lemeshtu the player now has a connection. i feel like although i might award the ability to overcome the physical aflictions the mental will carry on. so i will give them a multi personality of there choice to explore but i might do what Misroi suggested and have them do things in there sleep while unconcious. this will be lemeshtus work. either way i'll lead the party to try and in the long turm look for a cure. i have to try and be subtle about this so that again it dosent overide the main plot.
i have instructed the charcater to come up with a personality that would be its safe place..
see how things go anyway i'll update as things progress.
Another option might be to have the player pull them towards Thistle Top. That's where Nualia is, and she has the closest ties to Lamashtu. Let the affected character have some info that would make them push the party to go there. If the party won't, maybe the affected character will strike out on their own for Thistletop. That way the crazy part is getting closer to Lamashtu, and the non-crazy part is dealing with the goblin issue. So both sides are happy.
Then have the party find a cure in Nualia's (or one of her followers) gear. Let it be found at any point where you want to end the insanity.
The player should be able to have a bit of fun being torn between the two sides. As the playre victory becomes clear self preservation should push them to stick with the party, and then they'll be in position to take the cure.
Actually, here's another question: What religion did that character follow, and how important was his faith to him? You could always have the character start hearing voices that are from his God/Goddess or a divine messenger... and have the Cure be tracking down the High Priestess of Lamashtu and slaying or capturing her: Nualia.
In my current RotRL game I had a player drink from the waters and I bet he'll return to the shrine when they get back to town (currently starting book 3). In the meantime, I've had him undergo some minor physical transformations (looking more feral, for a tiefling) and having dreams/visions sent from Lamashtu. The player's been happy and it helps him add to his chaotic behaviors. If he takes sip #2, then me might just become more, blessed, by Lamashtu. Perhaps a free trait from worshipers of Lamashtu, an alignment shift, and stronger visions or blackouts where the character wakes up without knowing why he's lying with a pack of feral, misshaped wolves outside of town....