Hey everyone,
so some of the people who post DMing guides here have informed me that balancing templates with a broad and sweeping system is not going to work in such ways that it completely balances everything.
However, I like a challenge.
So, here are my latest thoughts that I have tried in a local homebrew.
All characters start at X pointbuy, we will say 20 because it is PFS standard.
So, standard characters = 20 point buy.
Each +1 of a template (a +2 template is two +1s) subtracts 5 point buy, and requires a single level in Expert or Aristocrat to be taken to compensate for it.
A +1 template gets the following
1d8+con mod hp
.5 bab
Save based on class
skills based on class
Skill ranks based on class+int mod.
IF a player builds a character with a . . .
. . . +4 template he starts with 0 point buy, and must take 4 NPC levels before he can take regular class levels.
. . . +5 template he starts with -5 point buy and must reduce his statistics to compensate, and must take 5 NPC levels before he can take regular class levels.
. . . +8 template (the maximum) he starts with -20 point buy and must reduce his statistics to compensate (7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 10), and must take 8 NPC levels before he can take regular class levels.
Stacking templates is allowed, but not recommended, as the negatives to point buy and the delay to go into class levels is going to hamper the character's power. Specific builds can take advantage of this, but most will be hurt by the delay.
What do you guys think about this idea of balancing template.
The most advantageous template to take is
Undead Champion + Bloody Skeleton, as it means if you get killed it isn't a big deal since you'll come back in 1hr anyway, and the fast healing is very nice. The needing to silent spell EVERYTHING that is a spell isn't. One could go zombie, but there isn't a bloody skeleton template for zombies.
Just to test it out quickly I made a human half dragon fighter expert/aristocrat/fighter vs human at fighter level 3 using your rules (granted I may not be applying them exactly as intended).
I think the half dragon blows it out of the water.
3 Natural attacks, flight, breath weapon + more.
Without even dumping a single stat
24 str
14 dex
16 con
12 int
10 wis
12 cha
Taking aristocrat and expert as classes kinda sucked, but hey at least you shore up his will save a little, but compared to what you gain it's more then worth it.
First recommendation - Make sure point buy is used after template is applied, this will bring down the stats some. Even then it still looks to be too powerful.
Just to test it out quickly I made a human half dragon fighter expert/aristocrat/fighter vs human at fighter level 3 using your rules (granted I may not be applying them exactly as intended).
I think the half dragon blows it out of the water.
3 Natural attacks, flight, breath weapon + more.
Without even dumping a single stat
24 str
14 dex
16 con
12 int
10 wis
12 chaTaking aristocrat and expert as classes kinda sucked, but hey at least you shore up his will save a little, but compared to what you gain it's more then worth it.
First recommendation - Make sure point buy is used after template is applied, this will bring down the stats some. Even then it still looks to be too powerful.
I do see your point. Perhaps I should push the pointbuy to -10 per template since it is, effectively a CR boost.
So+1 template requires Expert or Aristocrat class to be taken to compensate for template increase. Each +1 requires -10 to point buy.
Someone who makes a Half-Dragon is doing so because they want to beat things to death, and I don't want to hinder that.
Templates are still applied like racials, they just replace the point buy that is used for them.
Here the Half Dragon would be
Without even dumping a single stat
20 str (10[pb] + 2[hum] + 8[HD])
10 dex (10[pb])
16 con (10[pb] + 6[HD])
12 int (10[pb] + 2[HD])
10 wis (10[pb])
12 cha (10[pb] + 2[HD])
The dumpstatted Human Half Dragon would come to
24 str (14[pb] + 2[hum] + 8[HD])
10 dex (10[pb])
19 con (13[pb] + 6[HD])
9 int (7[pb] + 2[HD])
10 wis (10[pb])
9 cha (7[pb] + 2[HD])
Even with effectively 0 point buy the Half-Dragon is very powerful.
From 2 levels in Expert or aristocrat he'll gain 1 bab, some skills, some saves, and some proficiency with armor/weapons.
Compare him to the fighter and the fighter will have two extra feats, and as the game progresses and the fighter begins to get iterative attacks he will eventually get to have the same amount of attacks has the Half-Dragon, albeit at a lesser hit chance.
If we say that the template replaces racial bonuses then this balances things out a little more since it means stacking bonuses is less effective.
The dumpstatted human half dragon becomes
22 str (14[pb] + 8[HD])
12 dex (10[pb]+ 2[hum])
19 con (13[pb] + 6[HD])
9 int (7[pb] + 2[HD])
10 wis (10[pb])
9 cha (7[pb] + 2[HD])
This is less ridiculous, but still very good.
One option is to ban dumpstatting on characters with templates and have the minimum be 8 instead of 7. This brings the Human Half Dragon to
20 str (12[pb] + 8[HD])
12 dex (10[pb]+ 2[hum])
18 con (12[pb] + 6[HD])
10 int (8[pb] + 2[HD])
10 wis (10[pb])
10 cha (8[pb] + 2[HD])
This is effectively 25 point buy with some cool abilities, but at the loss of 2 class levels.
Possibly giving the character 1 negative level until he has enough levels to balance his template might help, but the creature is treated as having 2hd for how negative levels are treated.
This gives -5hp and -1 to all rolls that negative levels effect.
This brings it to
hp 7(1d8+4-5)
Fort 3(4-1)
Ref 0(1-1)
Will 1(2-1)
Its attacks are all
+4(+5-1)
+4 Natrual AC
Breath Weapon and immunity to breath weapon's element.
3 natural attacks
This is quite a bit on par with most melee bruisers, which is the only reason I could see ever taking Half-Dragon for. The breath weapon is a 1/day so it isn't as big of a deal. The bonus to AC is substantial, but at the same time any non-[element the half-dragon breathes] using caster should be able to go right through it so it isn't that bad.
If we say no dumbstatting allowed at all on templated characters then things get very interesting. However, if this is the case then I'd offer to allow racials and template bonuses to stack again.
20 str (10[pb]+ 2[hum] + 8[HD])
10 dex (10[pb])
16 con (10[pb] + 6[HD])
12 int (10[pb] + 2[HD])
10 wis (10[pb])
12 cha (10[pb] + 2[HD])
This brings it to
hp 6(1d8+3-5)
Fort 2(3-1)
Ref -1(-1)
Will 1(2-1)
Its attacks are all
+4(+5-1)
+4 Natrual AC
Breath Weapon and immunity to breath weapon's element.
3 natural attacks
The big problem with the Half-Dragon template is that it effectively adds at a minimum 31 point buy. The question is if forcing two NPC classes and giving 0 point buy is sufficient to overcome that.
What do you think?
I'd need to give it some thought. I was using the Half dragon since it is a template I am familiar with and has been known to cause trouble with campaigns in the past (and people love dragons).
Another way to help balance templates is require feats.
Remember you said you were a masochist.
I'd need to give it some thought. I was using the Half dragon since it is a template I am familiar with and has been known to cause trouble with campaigns in the past (and people love dragons).
Another way to help balance templates is require feats.
Remember you said you were a masochist.
Considering that the Half-Dragon would be disadvantaged against a werewolf--the same template cost I just discovered (+2 half dragon, but werewolf is CR1 wolf +1 template since werewolves in hybrid use the wolf's physical statistics with the bonuses on top of them)--boils down to the werewolf would be able to give one a run for his money if the initial breath attack doesn't kill him. Spend 1 feat for Aspect of the Beast to get two claws and the two balance to
HD has one "extra" feat over the lycan, but the lycan derives the majority of its statistis from the base creature.HD has a powerful Breath Weapon, but the Lycan has DR if the Breath Weapon isn't a straight kill.
I don't think we need to limit feats since the templated characters all have their own distinct weaknesses. Then again if the lycanthrope is an aasimar, tiefling, or catfolk then they can get two claws/talons from the beginning and skip the feat tax.
So, the two could just be equal in some way.
The theoretical maximum at -10 point buy per +1 template is
A +4 template, but that is at 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 10 or 8, 8, 7, 7, 7, 7.
A +3 templated character sits at 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 10 or 7, 7, 8, 10, 10, 10.
A +2 tempalted character sits at 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10.
A +1 templated character sits at 14, 14, 10, 10, 10, 10.
A No templated character sits at 16, 16, 10, 10, 10, 10 or any other combination.
It still won't work because the numbers are only a part of what you will have to adjust. It takes more than numbers to balance the game. Personally I think most templates are fine as they are.
You can't apply the lycanthrope template to outsiders, even natives so Aasimars and Tieflings are out. One of the disadvantages to taking a template is that you're down HD, also at higher level play the "extra" abilities become less of an advantage over class features. Honestly the best option if you must change something is to make them use a slower exp progression. I play monsters, templates and straight up, this is stuff I've been working with for multiple (since 2nd edition) systems.
It still won't work because the numbers are only a part of what you will have to adjust. It takes more than numbers to balance the game. Personally I think most templates are fine as they are.
Yeah, but I'm trying to come up with some sort of system under which the PCs are able to take templates while gain full HD progression. It is likely an impossible idea since the additional attributes equates to abnormal pointbuys.
Half-Dragon: 31 point buy [str 18 {1/2 dragon], Con 16 {1/2 Dragon}, 12 int {1/2 Dragon}, 12 Cha {1/2 Dragon}]Werewolf: 20 point buy [str 13{wolf} + 2{Lycanthropy}]
One option is to Level them up based on the XP of the standard characters, but this becomes ad-hoc and I want to use experience points.
So here is an alternative plan to the point-buy system that I call:
Standard non-template using characters are on the Fast Progression Scale.
+1 template characters gain 1.07% experience, but use the Normal Progression Scale.
+2 template character gain .75% experience, but also use the Normal Progression Scale.
+3 template characters gain .80% experience, but use the Slow Progression Scale.
+4 template characters gain .57% experience, but also use the Slow Progression Scale.
What this correlates to is
Standard Character reaches level 20.
+1 Temp Character reaches level 19.
+2 Temp Character reaches level 18
+3 Temp Character reaches level 17
+4 Temp Character reaches level 16
However, this also means that all bonuses gained from templates are applied after the character is created. It is possible to make a level 1 Half-Dragon with 30 strength if it is an Orcish Half-Dragon. No other balancing is done, as these powerful characters will slowly fall behind as the levels come.
The levels begin to properly stratify around level 7, before that the templates are sitting a level above where they will be when the standards are at level 20.
The money gained should be set to the Fast progression, so double the normal amounts. This means the level 3 half dragon will have level 7 gold, but considering he is fighting level 7 monsters this isn't such a big deal.
You could say this changes the name of the game to templates being high risk high reward (potentially) based on what they do. A bloody skeletal champion starts off at CR3 so the template for that would be +3, however the immunities that are gained from being a bloody skeletal champion (immunity to permanent death, fast healing (1/2 HD), immunity to cold, two claw attacks, DR 5/Blunt, immunity to Level Drain) does make up for that in a big way.
I sense with this system there would be a lot of melee templated characters, while the full casters would be standard characters.
Thoughts?
Ok so I have thought on this more and have come to the following systems:
Both of the below systems can be at work in the same game. Someone could choose to go for Point Buy Modification, while someone else goes for Experience Staggering.
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"You were always seen as the lesser of your kin, and so you left to prove yourself worthy. Your disabilities leave you as powerful as the normal races."
Each +1 template costs -15 point buy, and must be balanced with 1 Commoner NPC class. The Maximum template here is +3, the first two templates cost 15 point but, but the third costs 14 because it is literally all the points the character has with all of his attributes dumped.
(15, 15, 14)
Build the character as though he had 10 in all attributes, and then +/- the point buy attributes after the template is applied. With Lycanthropy the Animal's statistics replace the base creature's statistics if they are higher. Instead be that the Base Animal's statistics are added to the Base Creature's statistics in hybrid and animal forms.
"You are more powerful than your current peers, and therefore you are less challenged than they are by the challenges at hand."
Standard non-template using characters are on the Fast Progression Scale.
+1 template characters gain 1.07% experience, but use the Normal Progression Scale.
+2 template character gain .75% experience, but also use the Normal Progression Scale.
+3 template characters gain .80% experience, but use the Slow Progression Scale.
+4 template characters gain .57% experience, but also use the Slow Progression Scale.
Here is a character that I'm playing in Second Darkness modified to fit these two template systems. When we started SD we didn't know the Point Buy was 15, so we just stuck with 20. When we figured it out we just ran with what we originally chose.
"You were always seen as the lesser of your kin, and so you left to prove yourself worthy. Your disabilities leave you as powerful as the normal races."
"You are more powerful than your current peers, and therefore you are less challenged than they are by the challenges at hand."
Silastrix Experience Staggered (Party level 6, Effective +2 template)
You can't apply the lycanthrope template to outsiders, even natives so Aasimars and Tieflings are out.
We completely ignore this and ruled that if the Aasimar/tiefling has Scion of Humanity/Tiefling Equivalent then it works. We don't care if that is legal or not by paizo RAW or RAI.
"You are the common adventurer in the strange world, and sometimes you find yourself in league with monstrous allies."
Silatrix Standard 20 point buy. (I forgot to update the skills on this sheet, so ignore them.)
"You were always seen as the lesser of your kin, and so you left to prove yourself worthy. Your disabilities leave you as powerful as the normal races."
"You are more powerful than your current peers, and therefore you are less challenged than they are by the challenges at hand."
Silastrix Experience Staggered (Party level 6, Effective +2 template)
"You are the common adventurer in the strange world, and sometimes you find yourself in league with monstrous allies."
These characters are built normally with no special modifiers in place beyond using point buy to make them.
An Example: Silatrix Standard 20 point buy. (I forgot to update the skills on this sheet, so ignore them.)
"You were always seen as the lesser of your kin, and so you left to prove yourself worthy. Your disabilities leave you as powerful as the normal races."
Templates cost 15 point buy per +1, and must be balanced out with the Commoner NPC class. If using 20 point buy allow a +3 template with the last +1 of the trio being buyable at the cost of 14. If the template says that that Base Creature's statistics are replaced in the template then treat the replacing statistics as template bonuses instead.
Ex. Lycanthropy, the base animal's statistics override the Base Creature's statistics if the animal's is higher. Wolf STR 13. If this is higher than the Base Creature's then subtract 10 from the wolf's STR and use what is left, 3, as a template bonus that stacks with other template bonuses within lycanthropy. So +2 from lycanthropy would stack with +3 from wolf. This shouldn't come up a lot, but here is the fix in the case that it does.
"You are more powerful than your current peers, and therefore you are less challenged than they are by the challenges at hand."
Templates instead slow the rate by which the PC gains experience because they are less challenged by the challenges the party is facing. However, the characters gain the full point buy allowed to standard characters. In essence these are standard characters with templates that give them extraordinary powers, but at a cost.
The modifier on XP is as follows:
100% Experience No template
71% Experience +1 template
50% Experience +2 template
36% Experience +3 template
25% Experience +4 template
18% Experience +5 template
13% Experience +6 template
09% Experience +7 template
An Example: Silastrix Experience Staggered (Party level 6, Effective +2 template)
Does everything seem clear, and do you have any criticisms for this system?
Wraithstrike aptly stated that
It still won't work[ . . . .]
but I with the two options I think I can give people the best of both worlds based on their character desires. A character that is going to build into a caster will want to do the Point-buy modification, while a Martial like the barbarian would want to do the Experience Staggering system.
What do you guys think?