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I wasn't originally going to ask this question, because I thought there weren't enough DAoC'ers here to answer it, but, seeing as how there are quite a few of us, I wanted to ask, if you're choosing PFO over CU, then why?
This is obviously a very valid question, because for people who dedicated a lot of time to DAoC, we know the special place it holds in our hearts and obvious, even though CU isn't an exact clone (as Mark has said many times) it does resemble DAoC very closely (and is headed up by Mark and other former Mythicans).
So, that being the case then, why choose PFO over CU? Or have you made that decision yet?
While I can say I haven't fully chosen PFO over CU, I'm definitely leaning much more towards PFO at this point (even though I know CU is likely to be the slaughterfest typically desired by us DAoC'ers).
Why? Well, I spent a lot of my time on Mordred, and, the big appeal there was that the alliances and factions were guild-based, not set in stone like in RvR (though one of my big regrets from DAoC days is not RvR'ing enough).
I guess I was just trying to capture the whole "player created factions thing" which I didn't really get much of on Mordred, as people usually just stayed out of the Frontiers and killed each other in the more populated towns at the foot of Camelot and Tir Na Nag (Cots, Mag Mel, the works)...
So, a big reason I'll most likely be choosing PFO over CU is the idea of these player-created factions that are so meaningful in this game (the whole game is based around them).
Also, D&D was the first Fantasy fandom which I'd fallen in love with (DAoC being the second), so there's always that.
But, CU has a lot of similarities with PFO... Players are the content, Crafting matters (no big mob drops), similar sandbox elements, etc.
I guess at the end of the day, I just love the intrigue of the ebbs and flows of player-kingdoms, and player-created factions (with their contracts, alliances, betrayals, wars/feuds) more than the joy I got from killing faceless enemies in RvR (and I do mean it, it was a joy).
So, those are my reasons, what are yours?
Goblin Squad Member
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I started following mmorpgs with UO. Never got the chance or resources to play that game then. But when Climax (Tuomas Pirinen Lead Designer who'd designed one of my favorite board games of all-time Mordheim) announced they were making Warhammer Fantasy Role-Play inspired MMORPG I was really delighted (Human, Dwarf, Elf, Halfing, Ogre). Sadly that was binned as with so many mmo projects and Mythic picked up the license. That's when I became aware of DAOC and RvR/Siege gameplay and started talking to DAOC'ers way before WAR came out and even iirc before WOW had come out. Suffice to say good bunch of people there overall who were really disappointed with WAR. So I was looking out for a 3-faction RvR game and GW2 came along but that seems to not have worked out either. So since then it's become an evolution of a preference towards sandbox/player-run/made-guilds and more than just combat which I think is taking things closer to Fantasy Role-Play.
So yeah, I'm fully aware of CU, and perhaps 3 or so years ago I would have jumped on it 100%. But I've developed my ideas of what will make a more fun transition from RP to MMORPG for me. I think CU has a good chance to be fun, but I think for persistent online worlds, the complexity needs to increase in scope... which really is the lesson to take from EVE, if nothing else. The way to get people to RP (unless you can hand out scripts and choreography organize all of them in some 100% bespoke world (a big task it seems to achieve fun for all)) is to make them play roles by default according to their personal predilictions and out of that you get your drama.
I really hope PFO can develop diversity in it's player-base then you'll have diverse roles all playing a part to enrich the drama. All RP'ing. And that's the "problem" I feel CU has: It's a big war game, which might be a lot of fun as per any current massive war game. But what makes war really interesting imo is not just the quality of the combat (usually not in mmorpgs), but the world and why it's gone to war and what stakes are in play: Game Of Thrones eg.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wasn't originally going to ask this question, because I thought there weren't enough DAoC'ers here to answer it, but, seeing as how there are quite a few of us, I wanted to ask, if you're choosing PFO over CU, then why?
I'd say you asked a poor question. Instead I'd ask why do you assume I would play only one game at a time?
I wasn't originally going to ask this question, because I thought there weren't enough DAoC'ers here to answer it, but, seeing as how there are quite a few of us, I wanted to ask, if you're choosing PFO over CU, then why?I'd say you asked a poor question. Instead I'd ask why do you assume I would play only one game at a time?
Dedication Bonus.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A few reasons, actually.
First: I should say up front that I'm not a PvPer. I enjoyed RvR in DAoC - as an early-morning person, I was usually one of the first responders to weekend frontier actions - and I look forward to settlement warfare in PfO, but that's never been my focus. PfO seems to offer more scope for my more varied interests than CU.
Second: While I loved playing DAoC, a very large part of that was due to my guild, and not (or not just) the game itself. We've scattered to the four winds by now - it's been the better part of a decade, after all - and returning to Hibernia wouldn't be the same without them.
Third: I'm a (very) old-school D&D player, and I'm interested in seeing where GoblinWorks takes Pathfinder.
Fourth: I've put my money where my mouth is and invested pretty heavily in this Kickstarter. So I have money as well as time invested here, and I'd rather concentrate on making that pay off.
And last but not least: I really like the PfO community, have made friends here, and want to play PfO with this group of people, however strongly we may disagree with each other. And that goes double for the Pax PfO divisions - much as my old guild was a big part of my enjoyment of DAoC, Pax is and will be for my enjoyment of PfO. (That said, of course, if Pax Gaming decides to open a division in CU I'd be quite happy to game there too.)
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Camelot Unchained Drakhan
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Goblin Squad Member
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The artwork and tone are really cool in CU and the mythos they're building. DAOC were a good community in my experience.
I'm happy to see indie mmorpgs coming out with their own ideas and chance to do well in the market. I really hope WoD comes out one day too. Shame about Trials of Ascension, again another really good community there. Also keeping a beady eye on Behaviour's WH40K game.
I know I won't play half of these, but I like the different design ideas having a viability in the market.
I'll end up just playing one, but my decision will be based on actual play experience, so, I know I'll end up playing both as well. I just thought more people liked to dedicate themselves to one MMO at a time. That's how I do it, personally. I'll play one MMO for years before moving onto the next. I'd rather just dedicate myself to one and kick ass there, personally. lol
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was a guild leader for two years in DAOC (STC), and enjoyed lot of it, particularly the lore and flavor. That being said, I chose between CU and PFO because of the clarity of analysis Ryan has given, which I would contrast with Mark's...ramblings? He's heart's defintely in it, but I don't think he has any ability to analyze the issues surrounding MMOs (or at least articulate them).
I was a guild leader for two years in DAOC (STC), and enjoyed lot of it, particularly the lore and flavor. That being said, I chose between CU and PFO because of the clarity of analysis Ryan has given, which I would contrast with Mark's...ramblings? He's heart's defintely in it, but I don't think he has any ability to analyze the issues surrounding MMOs (or at least articulate them).
Really? I'm surprised you think that way. Sure, he does ramble a bit in his videos, but have you read his Foundational Principals for CU?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am choosing PFO as my main for a few simple reasons.
1> I heard of it first.
2> I have been playing DnD for a long time. My uncle has the original 3 pamphlets it was released as.
3> While I loved RvR in DAoC and DAoC itself, I tend to spend alot time playing and need more than just PvP now a days. Although in WoW I leveled via BGs.
3> I already like this community and believe we will make this game a lot fun.
While every one loves the 3 faction PvP, I think it was more fact you could happened on to two sides going at it, and it was a free for all for you. I would love picking off healers of the winning side to see it the encounter turn out equal. Then when it gets down to the last few, cleaning them all out. 8v8(v1 that they didn't see lurking in the shadows>, and I am the winner. That or our gank group runs in and PBAoEs them all. We had a 75% win average, the other 25% we just had our ass handed to us. But that was the fun. I can see that type of potential in this game. Maybe not the exact same, but the feel will be there.
I'll play CU, but I am more of a one game person. The will be PFO
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Goblin Squad Member
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Really? I'm surprised you think that way. Sure, he does ramble a bit in his videos, but have you read his Foundational Principals for CU?
That's what I'm referring to--rambling, inexact, long on affect words like "risk" but low on analytical clarity.
Seriously, dude's still selling an RVR from 12 years ago. I think he's truly somewhat who lacks analytical clarity.
CU is very different from DAoC, and RvR is a timeless system of PvP, just like FFA PvP, or 2-faction PvP (though imo, RvR trumps 2-faction PvP in every way).
He couldn't really be too analytical (like giving #'s and stuff) because it was, and still is too early in development, and the FP's are just meant to give people a general sense of what the game's design philosophies are.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Mark used to be a lawyer, right? He sure likes to talk!
It'll hopefully be v good. But agree PFO's blogs have been very impressive; can't deny that.
CU is focusing on doing one thing very well: RvRvR with Keeps. And I think it will be good and on a huge scale too. If PFO had not been around I'd have backed CU but I thought only x1 kickstarter mmorpg is enough risk for me! I actually think CU got away with less on it's kickstarter than PFO was able to offer/show/talk about and again it just came down to risk in isolation and in combination. Plus CU hit it's goal so no need to worry about backing it. PFO was touch and go for a long time; partly due to Xmas window I think.
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CU is focusing on doing one thing very well: RvRvR with Keeps.
Very true. The RvR game is most of it (though crafting will be unique, and will matter a lot too).
One thing that intrigues me a lot about CU is the building vs. PFO. The building style, while both are very sandboxey, are very different.
PFO will feature stock, pre-made buildings which will be put in designated location in the middle of settlements, and will likely go untouched for years at a time (while the outposts and POI's will be under fire).
CU on the other hand has a unique building system, based off of Minecraft, though instead of "blocks" the players will be given very different "cells" (basically like the blocks from Minecraft, but of all different shapes/sizes) and will be able to build VERY unique buildings of all different sorts that way, and will likely have more freedom on where to put them (as opposed to having to put them in the middle of a Settlement hex). The resulting structure can then be put into a blue-print to easily be rebuilt if it gets torn down.
Players will have the choice between destroying their enemies buildings, or capturing them as well, with different pros/cons.
Also by capturing/building in a certain area, you can expand out to have guards patrolling around the buildings, and then patrolling the area as a whole, which I think is one very unique feature in this MMO.
Basically, the whole building system seems more unique, and more customizable to me for CU. But, I still can't get over the whole player-factions thing, even though I do love RvR.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was a guild leader for two years in DAOC (STC), and enjoyed lot of it, particularly the lore and flavor. That being said, I chose between CU and PFO because of the clarity of analysis Ryan has given, which I would contrast with Mark's...ramblings? He's heart's defintely in it, but I don't think he has any ability to analyze the issues surrounding MMOs (or at least articulate them).
I agree. I normally don't worry too much about them, but I remember being shocked by the number of grammatical errors in CU's blog.
I was a guild leader for two years in DAOC (STC), and enjoyed lot of it, particularly the lore and flavor. That being said, I chose between CU and PFO because of the clarity of analysis Ryan has given, which I would contrast with Mark's...ramblings? He's heart's defintely in it, but I don't think he has any ability to analyze the issues surrounding MMOs (or at least articulate them).I agree. I normally don't worry too much about them, but I remember being shocked by the number of grammatical errors in CU's blog.
I played DAoC a few months after it came out, and was shocked by how few bugs there were. I wouldn't hire Mark to write a blog post for me, but he's a top-notch Game Developer.
Well at least you gave it the old college try.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not concerned with how good a writer he is--that's not meaningful. And while project management ability (delivering a stable product) is meaningful, it's not the heart of the matter--delivering a stable, bug free game, but with the wrong design, isn't going to help.
Absolutely willing to accept that he's a top notch game developer. It's his ability to do game design that I doubt.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Those with sure knowledge of analysis, as Mbando certainly has, can critique the evident quality of another's analysis but the game is in the playing. We don't have adequate sampling yet to make a determination on either. I liked DAoC so I backed CU's Kickstarter, though not as generously as I did PFO, and I'll play CU at least until I have adequate measures of the play, even if PFO is golden in the sunlight and stardust in the dark.
I will try PvP in both and see which one I prefer. Roaming with an 8-man in DAoC is still my gold standard for MMO fun but it's not entirely clear to me yet that CU will hit the mark. If it doesn't, then I'd rather play PFO for a lot of the same reasons I enjoyed EVE: meaningful, teamwork-oriented PvP.