Balance Rogue?


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I need to know if this class would be balanced compared to existing classes. Discussion on the advice forum tends to be more about balance and how to optimized more so than the homebrew forum.

I want to know if this purposed class would be overpowered or underpowered, and what possible changes I could make to it.

Grand Lodge

You have forced all rogues to conform to the dexterity thief acrobat/ streak sneak idea by making sneak attack damage limited by dexterity. I would recommend d changing it to half level minimum 1. Means more types of rogue work, and doesn't penalise people with low stats.

Also, does the bleed damage stack with itself? If so, too powerful, if not, probably okay, but do specify.

Maybe look at making the full round triple and quadruple damage attacks to standard actions. Otherwise, ranged rogues wil have a much easier time, and with it being a standard action, rogues would be more encouraged to move around and be tactical, rather than trying to slug it out, full attack to full atack like a fighter.


Bleed damage does not stack unless specified otherwise as per the bleed condition rules.

Sneak attack isn't a core mechanic. Doing it is suppose to be rare (or at least needed). The full-round action makes the melee option like a coup de grace.
The actual core mechanic Precise attacks/strikes does allow for strength damage. So strength rogues are double, just not ideal. I wanted to avoid trip fighters dipping 1 level of rogue for double damage on attacks.

Opportunist is suppose to make the rogue try to be more tactical.

Liberty's Edge

This is my opinion:

First off: THAT rogue would be very powerful in comparison to the base rogue, would be very fun to play solely for it's combat prowess.

However:
Bleed damage being crittable sounds off.
All those bonus effects like blindness etc being crittable sounds epic! A bit too epic.
And you shouldn't give those effects more attraction than the monks stunning fist.
Blindness: 1round/level of Rogue is extremely powerful. Don't make the rogue a better battler than the fighter.

Liberty's Edge

I liked the idea of pulling of the 3xSneak attack with one hit, but as suggested, would be more fit as a standard action. Ideally for ranged Rogues.
This should nerf the use of Wizards


TorresGlitch wrote:

I liked the idea of pulling of the 3xSneak attack with one hit, but as suggested, would be more fit as a standard action. Ideally for ranged Rogues.

This should nerf the use of Wizards

Well opportunist and bleed stacks should help ranged rogues harass spell casters.


TorresGlitch wrote:

And you shouldn't give those effects more attraction than the monks stunning fist.

Blindness: 1round/level of Rogue is extremely powerful. Don't make the rogue a better battler than the fighter.

I disagree about the stunning fist comparison. Monks should do higher damage, therefore their CC doesn't need to be as good. Atleast to the extent the rogue is limited by.

The blindness duration is probably too long. I'll change it and other to 1d4 like some of the other options. Although I do disagree with the fighter comparison. Fighters still do TONS more damage than this rogue. To compensate the rogue gets better CC.

Liberty's Edge

I'll assume you found inspiration to those special effects from the critical feat tree. I havnt read your rogue build too well but avoid getting effects on a lower level than a fighter, for balance reasons.

Btw. Loved!! That the effect check was intelligence based :)


TorresGlitch wrote:
well but avoid getting effects on a lower level than a fighter, for balance reasons.

I disagree here. Rogues need to be equivalent to fighters not less than. Fighters do more damage, but I want the rogue to be better at applying conditions.

Liberty's Edge

But the rogue outshines the fighter skillwise. It could be fun to see the conditions DCs be based off a skill, like "Craft wounds".


TorresGlitch wrote:
But the rogue outshines the fighter skillwise. It could be fun to see the conditions DCs be based off a skill, like "Craft wounds".

It's like saying spells should have less CC because there are lots of spells useful out of combat.

Also damage for this rogue is as follows

(weapon dice) + dex mod + conditions

Looking at level 10 and assuming +2 weapon and +4 stat increase to both dex and int from an array of 10 12 18 16 10 10 (elf) level increases in dex were looking at

damage: 1d8+9 + 10 bleed with a +16 to hit

compare to a fighter 18 14 14 10 10 10 (human)
rough damage: 2d6+24 at +18 to hit

Fighter does about double damage, while the rogue can add condition damage.


*bump*


Marthkus wrote:
TorresGlitch wrote:
well but avoid getting effects on a lower level than a fighter, for balance reasons.
I disagree here. Rogues need to be equivalent to fighters not less than. Fighters do more damage, but I want the rogue to be better at applying conditions.

Why do you believe that Rogues need to be equivalent to fighters in combat? I think they're not, and I do not think that's a problem; rogues have uses outside of melee that the fighter cannot match, don't they?

Does your rogue's description of Sneak Attack intentionally omit:
a) the restriction on maximum range for ranged sneak attack,
b) the option of non-lethal damage,
c) the requirements that the rogue be able to see and reach a "vital spot"
d) the exclusion of targets having concealment

regarding Precise Attack, the bleed damage specifies "per level". Did you mean "per Rogue level?" Otherwise, doesn't this make dipping into Rogue for a single level to get the scaling damage attractive?

I guess the increments of Opportunist override the Special clause of the Combat Reflexes feat: "The Combat Reflexes feat does not allow a rogue to use her opportunist ability more than once per round." Does it reflect the number of opportunities the Rogue can take advantage of - say two opponents within range were each damaged, the level 6 Rogue gets two opportunist attacks, or does she get three per her level, applying two attacks in response to one of the opponents, even if that opponent was hit for damage once that round?

The SRD is very clear that its Rogue that takes Opportunist gets one chance per round for that sort of attack, so I'd be leery about directly contravening that limitation as you propose.

Normally the number of Attacks of Opportunity is limited to Dex bonus + 1; does your Opportunist class feature override that limitation? You ought to clarify in the description either way.


Orich Starkhart wrote:
stuff

a) yes

b) It deals increased damage. If precision non-lethal damage is a thing then yes you can still do non-lethal damage.
c) that was a mistake fixed now
d) also a mistake

clarified for per rogue level.

Opportunist was rewritten. It still uses AOOs to perform these kinds of attacks and you have a limit on how many you can do per round. Opportunist does not grant additional AOOs per round (aside from giving the rogue combat reflexes).


Orich Starkhart wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
TorresGlitch wrote:
well but avoid getting effects on a lower level than a fighter, for balance reasons.
I disagree here. Rogues need to be equivalent to fighters not less than. Fighters do more damage, but I want the rogue to be better at applying conditions.

Why do you believe that Rogues need to be equivalent to fighters in combat? I think they're not, and I do not think that's a problem; rogues have uses outside of melee that the fighter cannot match, don't they?

Fighters do raw damage. This is essential when it comes to combat. Rogue use skills. This is not essential when it comes to out of combat. Traps can be muscled through. Doors can be broke down. And spells can temporarily replace many skills. Regardless, skills are still very useful. This is the same kind of role rogues need in combat. They need to be useful without necessarily doing a lot of direct damage (although it should still be more than base weapon damage).


Marthkus wrote:
Fighters do raw damage. This is essential when it comes to combat. Rogue use skills. This is not essential when it comes to out of combat. Traps can be muscled through. Doors can be broke down. And spells can temporarily replace many skills.

Casters can take on the damage-dealing role as well; that doesn't make fighter's melee capability useless, but it does make it less than essential.

Marthkus wrote:
Traps can be muscled through. Doors can be broke down.

If a party started relying on brute force and damage absorption this way in a campaign I ran, I'd make challenges that would inspire them to think differently.

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