| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As a sixth level druid in dire tiger form, I pounce my medium sized foe and attack with a bite and two claws. All three attacks hit, I roll damage, and then get three Grab attempts, of which all three succeed.
My foe acts and tries to break the grapple and fails, unable to beat my CMD
On my next action, I roll my CMB at +5 to maintain the grapple and succeed. I have a few options now, such as pinning or moving my opponent, but I just want to deal damage.
Do all of my three natural attacks auto succeed, or only one? Would have breaking the grapple as a free action, then full attacking be better in terms of damage output? At level eight, when I get rake, give me auto damage for rake in the same situation?
Also, if I had chosen to move my for action instead, would moving my foe through an ally's threatened area provide an attack of opportunity for my ally?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Okay, couple things.
First. The tiger only has the Grab special attack with its bite. So you get 1 free grapple attempt if your bite hits, that is it. Not three.
On the next round, you have the normal grapple options (move, pin, damage etc.)
So, pounce: Bite, Claw, Claw all just regular attacks. If the bite hits, you get a free grapple attempt.
Next round, you can make the check to maintain (assuming your opponent does not break out) to deal damage once with one natural attack (or move pin etc.). That is all you get until you get rake.
Once you have rake, when you successfully maintain (not initiate) a grapple, you will be able to use the normal grapple options with the grapple, and also get two Rake attacks (in this case 2 claw attacks). You still have to make attack rolls as normal with these attacks.
In addition, when you are using Pounce you also get your rake attacks, which means that on a pounce you will get Bite, Claw, Claw, Claw, Claw.
Either way, on a regular full attack you will have Bite, Claw, Claw. If you are grappling, you will get a check to maintain, then 2 Claws. So effectively, you can be grappling an opponent, deal bite damage and attack with two claws, which is the same as attacking with a bite and 2 claws with the added benefit of having your opponent grappled. Your best damage output, however, will be on the pounce when you will get 5 attacks.
I have found that the grapple option is pretty great once you have rake, because you can pounce and grab on the first round, and then pin and rake on the second. It can be a great combo since once they are pinned they can't attack you back.
If you wish to damage your opponent as part of successfully maintaining the grapple, you normally only get one attack--typically bite, but you can use your choice of a natural attack, unarmed strike, armor spikes, or a light or one-handed weapon.
Note that at level 8 a druid's wild shape improves to beast shape iii. At that point, you can use the dire tiger's rake, which gives you two additional claw attacks (which, if I read correctly, do not automatically hit) when you start the turn grappling your opponent. If you're a lion shaman, you can do this already at level 6.
Grappling rarely improves your damage output, but with rake and a good CMB it can do nicely. Choose the right option for the task at hand.
The forced movement question re: attacks of opportunity is an old debate that hasn't been conclusively resolved yet.
Do all of my three natural attacks auto succeed, or only one? Would have breaking the grapple as a free action, then full attacking be better in terms of damage output? At level eight, when I get rake, give me auto damage for rake in the same situation?
Also, if I had chosen to move my for action instead, would moving my foe through an ally's threatened area provide an attack of opportunity for my ally?
Only one attack deals damage. Dropping the grapple and attacking again is an option to potentially deal more damage.
Rake are attacks, not automatic damage.
Yes, AoO's for moving your opponent.
And you are correct, you get three grab attempts for your bite/claw/claw. I believe Lord Malkov is thinking of a tiger animal companion, which only gets it on the bite.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Do all of my three natural attacks auto succeed, or only one? Would have breaking the grapple as a free action, then full attacking be better in terms of damage output? At level eight, when I get rake, give me auto damage for rake in the same situation?
Also, if I had chosen to move my for action instead, would moving my foe through an ally's threatened area provide an attack of opportunity for my ally?
Only one attack deals damage. Dropping the grapple and attacking again is an option to potentially deal more damage.
Rake are attacks, not automatic damage.
Yes, AoO's for moving your opponent.
And you are correct, you get three grab attempts for your bite/claw/claw. I believe Lord Malkov is thinking of a tiger animal companion, which only gets it on the bite.
This is correct. Bite and claws have the grab. Plus if you are pouncing don't forget to use your rake attack giving you a total of 5 attacks and a possible grapple.
Here is an example I posted today about this:
Turn 1: Pounce - Bite (grapple chance), Claw (grapple chance), Claw (grapple chance), Rake, Rake.
Turn 2: (Assuming you got a grapple in turn 1 with the bite)Check to maintain grapple if yes bite, Rake, Rake
Turn 3-x: Repeat 2 until baddy is dead.
Ooops, yes that was my mistake about the Grab attack. The Dire Tiger does indeed have Grab on its claws.
Everything else I listed was accurate though. SOrry for any confusion and thanks you to other posters for pointing out my mistake. I was indeed thinking of companion statistics.... been looking at hunters too much I guess.
Thanks for the answers guys! I think i've gotten my head around the options of Grappling in Dire Tiger form now.
One more question however regarding the movement and AoO while grappling. If my ally does get an AoO when I move my foe, is there any penalty for him hitting into a grapple? Does the enemy gain a AC bonus because he is being grappled and is thus harder to hit? Obviously the -4 DEX penalty due to being grappled would come into play for my foe.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well, I play as a Dire Tiger druid, so let me give you what I find works and correct some of the strange responses given above.
First, you always charge and use pounce if you can for obvious reasons. Since you can grab on all 3 attacks, you always test for grab with the bite first, since if successful will allow you to continue to bite the creature as a free attack in the grapple (since the enemy is in your mouth, makes sense). Getting the grapple on the claws wont provide this benefit. Remember that grab gives you a +4 to the CMB.
Second, you don't get 5 attacks on a pounce. You get only 3; the rake is done the next round with the two claws while you grapple. So, if you grapple with the bite attack, you'll end up with 3 attacks even while grappling, which is of course awesome.
Third, pinning the creature is usually a good idea the round following your successful grapple. This not only removes the dex AC bonus, but also gives a -4 to AC on top of the dex penalty, making it far easier to dispatch by future attacks (including rake). Furthermore, if it is a spell caster type, it limits it to only verbal/mental spells. Any spell that has motion or materials is a no-go (compare to just being grappled, which is only a tougher concentration check). They are also unable to move you in their turn, which is what they could do if you just remain in the grapple condition, and possibly move you into a bad spot. Finally, the pinned condition says that they are limited in their actions, which is simply casting verbal/mental spells or escaping; they have no attack while pinned.
I believe if you decide not to pin your opponent (which I suppose you must have a really good reason not to do so), if you move them an ally would get an AoO depending upon where you move them. I don't think there is a melee penalty, but the ranged penalty for shooting a target engaged in melee certainly applies. There is no AC bonus for being grappled. You could argue that it would be extremely difficult to get a flanking bonus to a creature that is grappled, that would make sense. But that's about all I could think of.
But why you would chose to move around a grappled creature instead of just pinning the enemy and ripping its throat out is beyond me.
P.S. Don't grapple the Succubus. Just, not a good idea.
Second, you don't get 5 attacks on a pounce. You get only 3; the rake is done the next round with the two claws while you grapple. So, if you grapple with the bite attack, you'll end up with 3 attacks even while grappling, which is of course awesome.
This is incorrect. Pounce is an exception to the standard rake rules.
Here is the rule for pounce:Pounce: When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).
Also see these for more info on Pounce and rake.
Pouncing-and-rakingPounce-Rake
First, you always charge and use pounce if you can for obvious reasons. Since you can grab on all 3 attacks, you always test for grab with the bite first, since if successful will allow you to continue to bite the creature as a free attack in the grapple (since the enemy is in your mouth, makes sense). Getting the grapple on the claws wont provide this benefit.
This is also incorrect.
Quote from Grab ability:
If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold.
You can picture this as a claw continuing to sink deeper into your opponent.