New Lodge Proposal

[broxolm]

Hello again Pathfinders.

I know this idea has as much chance getting seriously considered as Orcs or Drow becoming playable races in PFS but I think its worth talking about anyway. I know there has been a lot of debate on how many factions are to many but I think there is a gap going unfulfilled amongst the factions I would like to amend.

My proposal is for a new faction called:

The Hunting Lodge.

Primary goal:
Using the Pathfinder Society's resources as a means to explore and hunt exotic creatures and monsters for glory and honor.

Typical Faction Members:
Fighters, Barbarians, and monks who arent compelled by the heroics of the silver crusade, the profiteering of the Sczarni, the history of Osirions, the ideals of the Andorans, the nobility of the Taldors, the power of the Cheliaxians, nor especially beholden to the authority of the Grand Lodge. Hunting Lodge Pathfinders are concerned mostly with the challenge of overcoming the greatest beasts of the land and have become Pathfinders knowing their missions would bring them directly into the path of the monsters they seek.

Gaining Fame:
Pathfinders of the Hunting Lodge are tasked with bringing back trophies of their most exotic and dangerous kills to be displayed in the grand halls of the lodges. Members are sent not only to slay terrible beasts, but also to explore and map unknown territory such as deep caverns or the ever changing landscape of the Worldwound. Bravery above all is the lodges motto and the bravest pathfinders are always the most rewarded.

I don't expect this to get serious attention but I would really enjoy playing in a faction with this flavor. Most of the scenarios include a BBEG anyway, it would be nice to have a bounty on him be a secondary faction reward, or include an optional monsterous mini-BBEG sub boss during the scenario for faction rewards.

Any thoughts/ideas/praises/comments/considerations/condemnations/flirtations are appreciated. :)

[John Compton]

It's certainly not a faction concept I had considered up until now. I can spot a few points of concern that you might be able to answer.

Why is this a faction? Put another way, how does this fit the model of factions? Our other factions have some overarching goal that benefits from their uniting behind a common leader. Some are pushing agendas that parallel the interests of one or more nations in a way. The Silver Crusade is trying to pressure the Society to be more Good. The Sczarni have a family paradigm that values ever-increasing membership. A monster-killing group seems more like a small gentlemen's club. If the Society is already doing things that result in Pathfinders encountering and killing big critters, what more does the proposed faction hope to accomplish?

Is there room for development? Many of the factions are growing and evolving as they face new challenges. Would this faction have good opportunities to evolve over time, encounter interesting challenges, and find ways to overcome them? I'm not talking about challenges like a creature's CR; I'm referencing challenges like the soul-searching the Andoran faction has been doing and evolution like the Cheliax faction's increasing interest in dark relics.

A new faction's concept should be able to address these questions. "Why is it a faction" helps place it in the world and help the faction last longer thanks to its continued relevance. "Is there room for development" makes the faction more interesting and compelling over time, again extending its lifespan.

MORE:

Oh right, there's one more point.

Why this faction over some other? We have several other faction ideas floating around, and from a development perspective, having fewer factions is easier than having more factions. Why should this idea receive priority?

[Matthew Pittard]

Isn't this concept already addressed in the Vanities? I believe there is a Trapping guild vanity and the Assassins (another form of hunting) guild.

Another player and myself recently had a discussion on the amount of 'killers' we had seen in games.Im not talking your average pathfinder here who yes does kill a lot, Im talking the pathfinder you will see every so often who decides to attack no matter the cost to his fellows.
I had said that it was supported in society somewhat because of the fact there was an assassins guild which society members could belong to. Now Im not going to reference the mechanics of that particular vanity but the fact that it exists did worry both of us somewhat.

As John mentioned above, there is a lot you can do with the existing factions but its always a good idea to think of a reason why you would have a character be in X faction. Make it part of your beginning character backstory. Its far easier to do it in the formulation process than it is to shoehorn something in later on.

[broxolm]

John Compton wrote:

Why is this a faction?

It may be true that the Hunting Lodge is simple in its goals and that it may seem that it doesn't seek to accomplish more that what is being accomplished anyway, but this is a very general viewpoint and there is a deeper goal that goes beyond accomplishing a given task per scenario. In a way, the Hunting Lodge aims to do what the Shadow Lodge arguable failed to do; be a better representative to the field agents than the Grand Lodge was.

The Hunting Lodge is a faction at its heart because it has an element every other faction lacks, the ability to interest the "simple" adventurer. At some point in most players lives, they have played as a dumb brutish savage like a barbarian or a reckless fighter whose social abilities while abysmal we're made up for by their prowess in battle. These simple minded pathfinders are not interested in the political or social nuisances of the other factions but often find themselves stuck amongst the ranks of the Grand Lodge for lack of a better option. I always felt the purpose of the Grand Lodge is to act as a "default lodge" for new players which is fine and good because it's missions are relatively easy compared to the other factions but many also have a level of subtlety that enhances the lodge past a simpler experience that a Hunting Lodge member would find more interesting.

I am unsure if I have made my point clear so allow me to make a different argument.
Sczarni's missions cater to a roguish flavor even if all the missions are not directly related to the rogue class. The same goes for the Silver Crusade and Paladin/Clerics. I can understand the need for factions based on region like Andoran or Osirions, but to include class related factions like the Silver Crusade without including a faction centered on barbarians seems like a wasted opportunity to interest the lowest hanging branch of players; namely the players who pick up the simplest classes like fighter or barbarian. It seems like the simplest answer to fill this gap is a faction dedicated to sellsword militia work or to big game hunting.

In of Out of Game terms, I have heard Pathfinder Society criticized as "The Homicidal Hobos Club" with various levels of truthfulness. I know it's hard to design a scenario that can't be solved by finding the treasure in the last room of the dungeon or by finding the BBEG and killing it. Scenarios were those are the end objectives will always outnumber the more social oriented RP quests. The full truth is that boss fights feel more challenging, deadly, and satisfying to overcome than RP diplomacy/intimidate challenges. Why fight against that trend with more socially flavored factions like Sczarni and fewer crusade flavored factions like Silver Crusade? The entire purpose of the factions is to synergize and enhance the flavor or the scenario and I can think of no better way to do that than to create a Hunting Lodge flavored faction whose missions include lawful bounties on BBEG's and monster hunting.

John Compton wrote:

Is there room for development?

This is a good question and not one I had entirely considered before. It is wise for any faction to evolve and provide new long term objectives to its members. Perhaps in the case of a Hunting Lodge, the grand development is the tracking and capture of a legendary creature or monster. As I mentioned in the original posting, not all lodge missions need be solely about the killing of a monster. Other objectives would including the tracking of certain magical or rare beasts through the terrain of the scenarios geography with the purpose of reporting back for other lodge members to keep tabs or hunt the beast in question. For example, what happened to the Unicorns of Sarkoris after the worldwound opened? It seems the unicorns wouldn't all be destroyed without leaving a trace. What if rumors of the terrasque's den had been surfaced and it would need to be guarded and preserved for fear of it falling into the wrong hands? Or if a Great Old One starfell from the Dark Tapestry and would need to be bound before it awoken to terrorize the countryside? Of course, it would be easy to write any legendary terror into the context of Galarion. Who knows what monstrosities lurk hidden in the dense jungles or beyond the veil of the worldwound. Any number of unimaginable monsters could be ready to terrorize a village or cast doom unpon a major city. These creatures would require proper tracking before final combat. These all great development and overarching goals beyond what is already covered by the existing factions. But keep in mind the spirit of the Hunting Lodge would cater to the simplest players. There are those of us who want to play the simple sword and shield fighters or greataxe barbarians without wanting to join a faction that requires various skill checks, subtleties, or subterfuges to overcome.

Another way to develop the faction would be through a bounty system. Everyone knows there are Pathfinders who have turned to evil as they are sometimes encountered in various scenarios. As seen in Eyes of the Ten, some Evil Pathfinders are captured rather than killed; yet there is no dedicated internal Pathfinder police force. Who watches the watchers? Regional police would not turn over criminals to the Grand Lodge when their own jails would suffice and I doubt venture captains spend their free time tracking rogue pathfinders. So, a Hunting Lodge, while starting as a small gentlemens club of big game hunters, may develop into the de facto bounty hunters and police force for the Pathfinder Society.

John Compton wrote:

Why this faction over some other?

The main attraction to the Hunting Lodge over other factions is it's simplicity. Some players would simply choose no faction at all rather than have to overcome extra challenges and side quests not directly related to the scenario. These types of players don't care if the Andoran Embassy has the perfect color curtains that Paracountess Zarta would think looks great in her bedroom or about how the Osirion Prince is looking for the dirty ancient vase beneath the forgotten temple. But what they do care about is finding the largest ugliest meanest creature in the area and putting it in a headlock. These players don't deserve to be penalized with fewer prestige points simply because no faction coincides with their interests; especially when such a simple faction could exist.

I can understand the question why Hunting Lodge over some other faction, but for me and my players, the real question is why have a faction at all? Don't get me wrong, the flavor that the current factions provide is great for their own ends but every single one is aimed towards a strong dedicated purpose other than a scenarios linear path. (Collect the side quest cache of goods/send the secret message to the pirates/deliver the medicine to the orphanage) while none of the factions have goals directly in line with the scenario (find the BBEG and kill him and take his stuff). For simpler gamers, there should be a faction that acknowledges this need to combat the monsters without extra bits like finding the location of a sunken ship but also without penalizing the players with fewer prestige points.

Thank you for taking the time to read this lengthy posting.

[broxolm]

Matthew Pittard wrote:

Isn't this concept already addressed in the Vanities?

Yes but only as a glorified day job roll for survival checks. There is mention of being invited on rare hunts, but this is empty flavor as is never occurs in any scenario. The purpose of a Hunting Lodge Faction is to enhance a scenario while still providing faction missions simple enough for basic players.

There is also an Assassins guild vanity but it's even more empty. Not only does it not provide any content in any scenario, it only provides a +4 bonus on any single Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, or Sense Motive check when dealing with other assassins. But there aren't very many NPC assassins in PFS scenarios, so it's not very useful. What this vanity does is allow players to flavor their characters. but bonus on any single Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, or Sense Motive check when dealing with other assassins. But in my experience, just because a character belongs to an assassins guild doesn't give them the ability to be a jerk.

There are many players out there that feel the need to be "killers" and nothing more. What I propose with the Hunting Lodge is to bring that mindset into the fold and direct it toward a constructive goal. It doesn't make sense to let the chaotic character run around being a mad dog "killer" type if there can be a faction that can channel that energy into something useful and team building.

A Hunting Lodge faction would provide that function and aim the "killers" towards a goal they would enjoy and would also be useful for the Pathfinder Society as a whole.

Thank you.

[John Compton]

In response to your "Why is this a faction" response:

Even though the Sczarni have a roguish flavor, and the Silver Crusade has a particular appeal to paladins, both of these factions have a deeper intention than simply catering to one or two classes as yu argue the Hunting Lodge would for barbarbians as well as fighters and/or rangers (and likely the slayer class when the ACG comes out); these factions also have in-game thematic hooks that allow a player to design a character that fits into the faction for a variety of reasons. To linger on the Sczarni for a bit, I know of a handful of paladins who are Sczarni based on the idea that they're paying off debts to the "Family." Likewise, the faction has a bit of a gentleman leg-breaker trope that appeals to many thug-style characters as well as a suave, fast-talking ideal for others. Its loose regional ties entice players to see what Varisia is all about, which inspires more ideas. Its adopted role as the outside information brokerage for the Society gives it yet another layer of involvement. Collectively, the Sczarni faction provides lots of hooks for drawing a character into the campaign, and part of that strength as a faction arises from its promoting the player to think about his character rather than rewarding uninvolvement.

I already hear concerns from some players that the factions are not as engaging as they were with universal faction missions. Introducing a faction that promotes straightforward brutishness over more involved plot seems like a step in the wrong direction to keep factions interesting.

You had my attention for a moment when you mentioned the Hunting Lodge aims to accomplish what the Shadow Lodge couldn't; however, I don't see how you followed through with that idea. If your idea of representing the common Pathfinder is to promote the gloryhound "simple-minded Pathfinder," I fear you've misinterpreted what the Society is all about. Those with no faction-related interests may find the Grand Lodge is the best fit. Those characters that have no interest beyond lookin' for some beasties to bash may not be the best candidates for the Pathfinder Society. I don't believe we should reward the design of characters who don't fit well in the campaign. In the same way, were I to run a very good-aligned campaign, I wouldn't reward someone who insisted on playing an inquisitor of Rovagug.

In response to your "Is there room for development" response:

The bounty hunters of traitors concept has some appeal, but to an extent that is the domain of the Grand Lodge. In fact, even now the Grand Lodge is beginning a bit of a traitor man-hunt.

If the faction's to have interesting conflict, consider what I'm doing with the Silver Crusade. The Silver Crusade is unlikely to change outright, but I am trying to give its members very satisfying challenges that sometimes require one to choose the immediate good or the greater good. In other cases I provide an opportunity to do good, but there's also an opportunity to do even greater good at great risk. If the Hunting Lodge were to thrive as a narrative tool (because ultimately that's what a faction is), it would have to have some type of challenge beyond "find critter, kill critter, drag critter back to lodge for mounting on the wall." I see what you're trying for, but as the developer I don't think it's sufficiently engaging.

In response to your "Why this faction instead of others" response:

Ummm...hang on. What you're saying here doesn't line up with how Season 5 treats factions and Prestige Point awards.

Overall:

I'm not sold on the idea.

Keep inventing, brainstorming, and revising. Creativity in the authors, campaign staff, and player base is key to telling great stories and continuing to improve the campaign, and I'm glad to see you're excited about fleshing out a concept.

[Andreas Forster]

This thread just produced some cool ideas, which I will share in order to help broxolm better develop this faction idea.

I think, after creating the basic concept for a new faction, it is a good idea to come up with a faction head. And I don't mean details like his/her name, but rather a character concept/personality.
What are his/her goals? Why does he/she choose to found a faction? Factions will have to invest a lot of money and people (basically everything the PCs get for spending prestige. If a player spends 2 PP to get a Wand of CLW, the faction will have to pay those 750 gp to have the item crafted.), so there must be something to be gained from being involved in Pathfinder Society politics.

So, after this short explanation, here's the idea that came to my mind:

I'm thinking of a middle-aged man who is quite the stereotypical gentlemen's club member, complete with a wide mustache and a smoking pipe. That man has lots of money and in order not to get bored, he has started collecting rare animals quite some time ago. He keeps those creatures in private zoos all around the Inner Sea to show to his fellow gentlemen's club members while enjoying a good smoke.
He clearly sees the advantage of investing in Pathfinder Society business, because he hopes to get access to expeditions into unknown territory. He wouldn't neccessarily require "his" agents to kill and bring back big creatures, but to report sightings of unusual creatures and take notes of where to find them. (He will later organize his own expeditions to capture those creatures)
Faction-specific boons/actions could include bargaining with merchants/smugglers who sell rare animals, capturing creatures that can be easily transported, or gaining valuable insight by studying rare creatures.
The advantages of working with the Society would be clear in this case: Thar faction head would save a lot of valuable ressources for locating creatures and estimating the risks of capturing them.

Now what kind of Pathfinders would such a faction appeal to?
Obviously, characters who like to hunt animals or similar beasts would understand the faction head's motivations and enjoy hunting his prey.
Social characters might like the gentlemen's club environment.
Characters who are interested in trade, but as strongly as the Qadirans, will be happy to make shipping/smuggling deals for their faction head.
Knowledge-based characters would be interested in the research aspect of hunting down the rare creatures.

Also, those private zoos are a great opportunities for scenarios. What if something goes wrong and the faction head needs to ask the Pathfinders for help?
Sure, this strongly reminds of the Blakros museum, and it's basically the same, but with less strange arcane artifacts and more exotic creautres. Also, because those zoos are not strictly Absalom-based, they could include some local oddities, like having some forces common to specific regions cause trouble from outside.

[Netopalis]

I feel as if killing things is the last thing we should be worried about Pathfinders not doing enough of.

[Jiggy]

broxolm wrote:

Some players would simply choose no faction at all rather than have to overcome extra challenges and side quests not directly related to the scenario.

That's exactly what the Grand Lodge is for. Your PFS character is already a member of the Grand Lodge regardless of faction choice. By selecting GL as your "faction", you are literally choosing to not have a "real" faction.