TWF and Rapid shot stacking?

[Dustyboy]

Just wondering if the rapid shot tree and the TWF tree stack.

Thanks

[Sub_Zero]

if you're talking about using guns, then my gut says yes. Although, how you might reload is a tricky subject in its own right.

[Doomed Hero]

Yes, but it only works with one-handed ranged weapons that can be reloaded (or a new one drawn) as a free action.

Basically you're going to need quick-draw.

[blahpers]

Rapid Shot works fine with TWF.

You'll need Quick Draw if you're dealing with thrown weapons; or Rapid Reload, alchemical cartridges, and an extra hand or equivalent if you're dealing with guns and want to be able to reload during your sequence.

[Dustyboy]

What if I'm using composite bows with two vestigial arms?

OR

what if i'm a four armed race with two vestgial arms, two composite long bows and three hand crossbows?

[LazarX]

They work.... if you're using revolvers. But you're going to empty your primary gun very fast.

[Azten]

Just pointing this out, there are no rules for using TWF and two-handed weapons, melee or otherwise.

If I'm mistaken, please point out such rules, but until then you can't TWF with longbows as far as I'm concerned.

[LazarX]

Azten wrote:

Just pointing this out, there are no rules for using TWF and two-handed weapons, melee or otherwise.

If I'm mistaken, please point out such rules, but until then you can't TWF with longbows as far as I'm concerned.

You can TWF with hand crossbows, but reloading becomes an issue. You can TWF with longbows if you're a Thri-Kreen or some other critter with 4 arms.

[Azten]

Again, the TWF rules don't support that, though multi weapon fighting might, I'm not sure.

Link. look at "Table: Two-Weapon Fighting Penalties." No rule for two two-handed weapons.

[BigDTBone]

Azten wrote:

Again, the TWF rules don't support that, though multi weapon fighting might, I'm not sure.

Link. look at "Table: Two-Weapon Fighting Penalties." No rule for two two-handed weapons.

Bows are not 2-handed weapons, they are ranged weapons. Unless you would let a medium character use a small bow in one hand...

[Mapleswitch]

Does TWF and Rapid Shot work with thrown weapons?

[Dustyboy]

Mapleswitch wrote:

Does TWF and Rapid Shot work with thrown weapons?

I believe it does.

[Chemlak]

Mapleswitch wrote:

Does TWF and Rapid Shot work with thrown weapons?

Yes. If your number of attacks would exceed 2 (which it always would, since otherwise you're just using Rapid Shot and not TWF), then you need a means of drawing the thrown weapon for the third and later attacks as a free action: Quickdraw.

[Magpied]

What would the total attack penalty be? Anyway to counter that massive drop in attack?

Ideas for characters to utilize this combo, my first thought is a Ninja with daggers/shurikens and Vanish.

[BigDTBone]

Magpied wrote:

What would the total attack penalty be? Anyway to counter that massive drop in attack?

Ideas for characters to utilize this combo, my first thought is a Ninja with daggers/shurikens and Vanish.

A ninja could also add flurry of stars. That's a lot of shuriken.

[Dustyboy]

Dual longbows would be -6/-6/-6/-11/-16 before BAB and dex (Or wis :3)

I'm currently trying to minimize that

If you have a full BAB

you'd be dealing with

-6/-6/-6/-11/-11/-16/-16/-21/-26
Bab included
14/14/14/9/9/4/4/-1/-5

Let's add a mod to that, how about 28 str/wis on a guided weapon (achievable with ease) 14 mod

28/28/28/24/24/18/18/17/9

at that point i'd imagine you to have a +5 enhance bonus to hit so

33/33/33/29/29/23/23/22/14

I like two handed fighter for this (Adds str to damage with 2h weapons, i believe a bow counts as a 2h weapon)
38/38/38/34/34/28/28/27/19

damage around

1d8+28+10

or with clustered shots and all hitting, 9d8+342

Imagine what you can do with a gunslinger

[Robert A Matthews]

My ninja does TWF + Flurry of Stars. Don't have the feats available to take Rapid Shot on top of that. Not sure I would enjoy the extra -2 anyway. He's already at a -4 penalty with his Flurry of Stars+TWF combo. It does make for some awesome sneak attacks when he has greater invisibility on him.

To answer the question, yes rapid shot and TWF stack. And you can also do both of those things and flurry of stars.

[Doomed Hero]

two weapon fighting doesn't stack with flurry.

It did in 3.5. It doesn't in Pathfinder.

[Archaeik]

Spoiler:

Dustyboy wrote:

Dual longbows would be -6/-6/-6/-11/-16 before BAB and dex (Or wis :3)

I'm currently trying to minimize that

If you have a full BAB

you'd be dealing with

-6/-6/-6/-11/-11/-16/-16/-21/-26
Bab included
14/14/14/9/9/4/4/-1/-5

Let's add a mod to that, how about 28 str/wis on a guided weapon (achievable with ease) 14 mod

28/28/28/24/24/18/18/17/9

at that point i'd imagine you to have a +5 enhance bonus to hit so

33/33/33/29/29/23/23/22/14

I like two handed fighter for this (Adds str to damage with 2h weapons, i believe a bow counts as a 2h weapon)
38/38/38/34/34/28/28/27/19

damage around

1d8+28+10

or with clustered shots and all hitting, 9d8+342

Imagine what you can do with a gunslinger

Longbows are not 2H weapons, they are ranged weapons that take 2 hands to use.
2H Fighter archetype does not affect bows.

Also, I don't see where you are getting the extra attack at -26? Your primary hand gets a max of 4 attacks +1 from Rapid Shot, your offhand get a max of 3 attacks with all the TWF feats (3 at full, 2 at -5, 2 at -10, 1 at -15. where is the attack at -20 coming from?)

[Rhatahema]

First of all, vestigial arm comes with its own set of restrictions on gaining attacks. It never grants additional off-hand attacks per round, so its real use with a TWF gunslinger will be reloading.

Second, using two off-hands to grip a two-handed weapon (melee or ranged) really isn't allowed or disallowed by the rules; It's simply never addressed (as far as I can find). I can imagine it being allowed for two-handed melee weapons (each off-hand grants +.5xStr modifier damage), but two-handed ranged weapons are dubious. For instance, a composite longbow used in two off-hands shouldn't be getting the same strength modifier to damage as one used with a primary hand (following the logic of off-hands). I would just steer clear of that idea.

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

Who says you can't use TWF with 2 handed weapons? Four arms, two weapons, sounds within the intent and rules for TWO weapon fighting for me :)

[Archaeik]

They haven't explicitly come down on 2H TWF yet, but there are no clear rules about how it would function (other than "offhand not light").
The interactions between things like +50% str for wielding 2H vs having only a "primary hand" and "offhand" in the TWF descriptions conflict a little bit, as do the rules for applying Double Slice/Power Attack...

Essentially it leaves it entirely in the realm of GM fiat about how he views the mechanics and how he will accept it working.
(In short, expect a lot of table variation, including having it disallowed)

A lot of people go on about how it "should" work... but most of those assumptions are based on inferences and meta-rules.

[Robert A Matthews]

Doomed Hero wrote:

two weapon fighting doesn't stack with flurry.

It did in 3.5. It doesn't in Pathfinder.

Not Flurry of Blows with shuriken. The ninja ability Flurry of Stars. Yes it does work.

[Doomed Hero]

Robert A Matthews wrote:

Doomed Hero wrote:

two weapon fighting doesn't stack with flurry.

It did in 3.5. It doesn't in Pathfinder.

Not Flurry of Blows with shuriken. The ninja ability Flurry of Stars. Yes it does work.

Ah, gotcha.