| 6 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
The description leaves many things unclear and raises many questions.
Unlike the creations of standard necromancers, a gravewalker's creations remain forever tied to her will...
Bonethrall says "take control" which is very strong wording. Later it says her "minions" implying that this refers to creatures she has bonethralled. But command undead doesn't give control over intelligent undead; merely makes them friendly. And yet, the same paragraph implies it does.
(once control is established, the undead remain controlled even if outside the witch's aura). Intelligent undead receive a new saving throw each day to resist her command.
This raises questions about possess undead.
Possess Undead (Sp): A gravewalker may take direct control of one of her undead minions within her aura of desecration, as if using magic jar;
How much like magic jar? By a strict reading, magic jar won't work on mindless undead because they're soulless. If bonethrall is what makes an intelligent undead her minion then does casting control undead on one also make it a minion for the purposes of this spell?
I get the feeling that the writers intended for bonethrall to behave more like a long-lasting control undead; not command undead and that you can only possess those you've bonethralled. But that's only strongly implied. Per the wording, that's not the case.
This debate just keeps raising more and more questions over on another RPG forum so I'm hoping we can get an official clarification of how the Gravewalker's undead-controlling powers are supposed to work with regard to these various questions.
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Note that when you're asking for a ruling it's best to summarize your question succinctly/clearly, so that the Paizo staff can quickly determine what the issue is.
Is it accurate to sum it up like this: "When does an undead creature under some measure of control by a Gravewalker Witch count as her 'minion' for the purposes of Possess Undead?"
(In other words, it seems intended that a target of your Bonethrall would count - but what about an undead you have simply Commanded? And one you have Controlled? Would either or both count as well?)
Actually, I think it all comes down to one question.
Unlike the creations of standard necromancers, a gravewalker's creations remain forever tied to her will
Did you mean for bonethrall to act like a long-lasting control undead? Because that is strongly implied by the above statement.Bonethrall says it's like command undead. Otherwise Gravewalkers have no powers to live up to the statement above because any necromancer can animate dead that remain forever tied to their will.
Also, the rest of the text is very confusing if that is not the case.
Really? But they actually link the specific spell. The spell is better because it's 1 day / lvl before they would break out of it, no additional saves. Unless they're very weak compared to you, most undead would make a save before then.
I think I can simplify this. I'm 99% sure they mis-linked command undead incorrectly in the bonethrall description. I suspect they meant to link to the cleric feat by the exact same name command undead. That would resolve all the ambiguity and aura of desecration would actually be useful when it wasn't otherwise.
Unfortunately, it won't let me edit my original post anymore to simplify it. Actually, with this new realization, it probably justifies a new thread.
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Dammit! I asked a couple months ago on the boards about how to be able to start a character off at 1st level with the ability to have an undead minion and nobody mentioned this Archetype....this is frickin' perfect for the character I had in mind.
Also I agree with the thought that they linked to the wrong command undead ability.
Also I think that the magic jar thing is only for taking over an intelligent undead....although I don't see why it couldn't be for unintelligent ones too. I actually thought that all undead were soulless. I would treat the magic jar as containing the undead spark of the creature, whether intelligent or unintelligent, until the gravewalker releases control.
Exactly. With that fix in place, it's exactly what I'm looking for. I've always liked a cleric's ability to control undead but I also love the witch concept and I'm already playing a cleric in another game (whom I'm love). Without the fix, the archetype would be broken. It wouldn't get any useful control over intelligent undead. I would just play a regular witch and take the plague patron and animate dead and not have to give up a familiar and three hexes.
The new, much simpler question has been posted. I appreciate any votes to add it to the FAQ. It could resolve SO MUCH confusion.
Dammit! I asked a couple months ago on the boards about how to be able to start a character off at 1st level with the ability to have an undead minion and nobody mentioned this Archetype....this is frickin' perfect for the character I had in mind.
Actually, it's easier to make a negative energy channeling cleric with the Command Undead feat. And the Undead Lord variant lets you have an extra zombie or skeleton up to your lvl in HD, though I don't think it's worth what you give up. Even if they fix this, the Gravewalker won't compete with a cleric who can control as many undead with one feat. Also, unless they change the wording, the Undead Master feat will boost a cleric's HD pool by 4 HD but not the Gravewalker's bonethrall so clerics still tend to be better in most ways.