The game tells us certain things about the magic item economy. It tells us that magic items can be sold for 1/2 price, and bought for full price, but while players can easily learn to craft items they never are able to sell them for more than half price. It seems strange that the economic system is so rigid. While this exists for game balance purposes, we can come up with a system for why this might be in a role-playing sense.
May I present:
(I make a few Golarion references here but it would be easy to convert this material for another campaign world)
In most civilized regions, the The Ancient and Esoteric Order of Artificers has at least one agent, or "member," often more in well-established areas. The The Ancient and Esoteric Order of Artificers (or AEOA for short, sometimes referred to simply as "the Order") exists as a means to generate wealth for its members and to guarantee the security of this wealth.
Consider the independent artificer. He has just gone to great expense and invested his time in crafting a +2 flaming burst greatsword. He now wishes to sell it for 32,350 gp, having spent 16,350 and about three weeks of his time making it. A fighter walks into his shop, and he shows the fighter his beautifully crafted greatsword. The fighter says "Sorry, but I'm actually looking for a +2 keen undead bane scimitar. Have you got one of those?" Our crafter doesn't, so the fighter leaves empty-handed. That night, a thief breaks into the shop and steals the greatsword and also several thousand gp worth of reagents he needs to make his next item.
So the problems of the magic merchant are these:
1. Maintaining an inventory of items is extremely expensive, and whenever you craft an item without already having a buyer you are taking a risk of having spent gold on an item nobody will buy. Possibly such an item might remain on the shelf for months or years before finding a buyer; considering the expense of such items we can expect only occaisional sales of them as most oif them are more expensive than normal people could ever afford.
2. Protecting crafted items from theft is potentially a very serious issue. A third level caster can get the craft wondrous item feat, but probably does not have sufficient resources to protect himself from being burgled by a 3rd level rogue with mundane equipment. Magical security can be built but it is very expensive and your low-level crafter is unlikely to be able to afford it. Even high-level crafters have difficulty affording it; if you are crafting items for profit the amount of money you have to pay for security can mean it takes along time for your crafting operation to simply break even.
This is where the AEOA comes in. This ancient organization has existed for milennia in one form or another and was founded by a group of crafters who banded together for mutual protection. Today the AEOA is present in one form or another in most "civilized" lands, in some places operating openly while in others it exists secretly. Most established merchants are members or associates of the AEOA.
Members of the AEOA communicate with and exchange goods with one another through the use of ring gates. These items allow for instantaneous transportation of any item that can fit through an 18" hole. Larger items like suits of armor can be re-sized magically before transport. Though the details of the AEOA's network of ring gates remains a secret, rumor has it they posess the means to make "master ring gates" capable of transporting objects further than 100 miles. Reputedly there is a single "headquarters" where the AEOA operates which coordinates the work of its members.
If a member receives a request for a specific item, and he does not have one available, he writes a request on a piece of parchment, seals it with his personal seal, and passes it through the ring gate. The other end of the ring gate is at the AEOA headquarters (whether there is one or many headquarters the effect is the same). If an item like that is available it can be sent via ring gate within a few hours. If the item needs to be commissioned then a quote will be sent back indicating the amount of time required and the price. The merchant then must reply whether or not he orders the item through the network. Commonly the item must be paid for before being received; commissioned items must be paid for at least 50% before work begins.
Members will also be offered the chance to work on items and will be paid a markup on items they craft for the Order. However, in order to become a member a membership fee must be paid to the AEOA; this fee covers the cost of the ring gate that the member has the use of and also pays of a share of the cost of operating the network and the security involved.
Members are paid 60% of base cost for most items they craft. Items of less than 1000 gp in value, including most low-level potions and scrolls, are paid for by the order at 70% of base cost. They are also paid 55% of value of items they have bought from the public. Members who order items from the Order pay 90% of base cost. An extra 50% markup is charged for "rush" items can be charged; a rush item is crafted in half the time normally required (more on how that is possible later). Members who are not busy with commissions may craft items "on spec" and receive 55% of the base price for them. Members who do not want to keep extensive inventory on hand typically work this way.
Note that a member can sell an item he has personally crafted to a customer in his own shop for full price, and he keeps the full profit. But it is assumed that this will be rare; for items that a person has crafted themselves the network provides a means of finding buyers.
Members have a number of obligations. Firstly, the prices charged by members are fixed and they are not permitted to bargain. Likewise they pay a fixed amount for items they buy back from the market. Members are not permitted to disclose any secrets of the Order, including how they communicate with the AEOA or how items are sent and received.
An "associate" is a person who answers to a local member of the AEOA. They can buy and resell items as members do, but they do not have their own ring gate, so they need to approach a member for such things. Any profit they make through the selling of crafted items provided by the Order or commissioned for the Order they must split with the member who brokered the arrangement. They have the same obligations with regards to pricing as members do. However, they do not need to pay membership dues. Typically there will only be one member in any but the largest towns; the right to be the sole member in a town (and thus have sole access to the Orderès network) is called a "franchise". The amount of dues paid by a member may in part depend on the value of his franchise. In major cities there are often multiple members. Note though that AEOA rules prevent them from undercutting each other.
In parts of the world where strong civilized governments exist, the Order commonly has made arrangements with the state government to enact laws guaranteeing an Order "monopoly" on the operation of magical shops and businesses. While little can prevent people from simply buying and selling things, the difficulty of operating without a shop or a stall in the marketplace makes it difficult for independent crafters to operate. Governments (particularly in Lawful states) are willing to put up with this as it guarantees them access to high level crafting and also constrains crafting to certain rules which promotes stability. Less orderly nations are often convinced to adopt such ordinances through bribery, or at least convinced to "look the other way" when agents of the Order use violent tactics to enforce their monopoly.
Morally the Order is strictly Neutral, though it tends to attract more lawful members than otherwise. They realize that artificers exist in every country, good or evil, lawful or chaotic, and if the Order is to coherently maintain the monopoly it has developed it must accept all these as members; to exlude any one group would be to create competition for themselves. In the interests of protecting the interests of the Order as a whole they do not allow themselves to become involved in politics or petty local struggles. They only intervene to protect and enhance their own position. The AEOA maintains a "faceless" presence; when buying or seling items to the Order a local member has no idea who made an item (it it wasn't him) or who will use it when it is sold (if he made it). It is possible that a lawful good crafter in Lastwall could make an item that ends up being used by a chaotic evil vampire lord in Ustalav... or vice versa.
The site of the headquarters of the AEOA is a closely guarded secret, and powerful magics prevent others from divining its location. The order has been around for milennia and if your players come up with a plan to rip them off, well, the Order probably thought of that one centuries ago and already has a counter in place. It is rumored that the headquarters is in Druma since the ideology of Druma is in harmony with the goals of the order. However, other rumors place the order actually in a separate demiplane created specifically for this purpose. This demiplane as a different rate of time, and time there passes at double the rate that it does in the normal world, allowing items crafted there to be finished in half the amount of "Golarion" time normally necessary. Rumor also has it that only those who have "acclimated" to the demiplane actually experience time at this rate; visitors experience the demiplane as if everyone else has been hasted or as if they have been slowed until they have been there for a sufficient time. Another rumor suggests that items crafted by the order include an enchantment that prevents them working in the demiplane unless used by a person who is acclimated to the demiplane. This makes it very difficult for anyone to penetrate the demiplane without invitation and any attempt to rob the Order would probably have to at the very least be an inside job.
The Order has the possibility of being a significant patron in a Pathfinder game. It is possible that one particular reagent has become scarce and the Order (or one of its members) hires the player characters to find a new source. Perhaps the Order needs to "discipline" a member who is violating Order rules or has broken faith with them altogether, and hires the PCs to "teach them a lesson." The order may offer a bounty on someone who has stolen from one of the Order's members. Or perhaps the party has to "convince" a local Lord in the River Kingdoms to honor the Order's monopoly rules.
All in all the existence of the AEOA justifies the system of pricing for the buying and selling of magic items in Pathfinder, and for magic stores that seem to have access to an extensive inventory. The Order tends to limit the ability of Player Characters to earn money by crafting items, though it does not inhibit them from doing so for their own use. The Order can also act as a starting point for adventures, since there are many reasons for the Order to hire the player characters.
I hope this may be useful to some of you!
Peet
I see a lot of fluff here. Can you give us the crunch/rules?
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Isn't this why there's a creature in the Bestiaries called a Mercane? Also if you're a fan of the Myth series by Robert Lynn Asprin you could simply add Deva, the Infinite Bazar where anything and everything can be found. Of course, then you'd have to offer Deveels, or "devils" that can pop through the dimensions and make deals on items.
Personally I say: if my PLAYERS don't care about price fixing, economics, or magic item purchase, why kill myself over it. But even though it might not be needed for my game, you've done the game a service Peet and your fluff is top notch boss! You have my thanks for an awesome read.
Save yourself a lot of trouble and ditch the ring gates. Instead use one demiplane (9th level version) with lots of doors/gates/rings. Just recasting the spell allows you to move the doors and create new ones. Plus it's one badass vault. A single 17+level mage can coordinate the movement of goods and such, for a small fee per transaction naturally.
When I saw the title of the thread, I was expecting another discussion on how to work around magic items and keep the PCs viable.
Although I am not a fan of "magic marts", I appreciate the thought you put into this. Cool stuff for those who allow magic shopping in their games.
Frankly, with a high magic world I don't see how a magic mart wouldn't exist. Seriously, it would only take one demiplane of doorways and an merchant organization ready and willing to use it. But I digress, I like the idea.
While I don't think this would work completely in my setting, it's a great piece of world-building. Love your ideas.
The gates for a demiplane are certainly valid, but you can just hand someone a ring gate. Each addition of a portal in the demiplane requires a new casting of the spell greater create demiplane, greater and you may need to re-pay the permanency cost after that to make the gates you added permanent... I'm not sure. It seems likely that if you made changes to a demiplane after you made it permanent you would have to re-pay the permanency cost. If not though it would certainly be cheaper just to add more portals.
Part of the idea is that the ring gates make it easy to transfer objects but not as easy to move people through them. Even with reduce person they may still be a little too tight, depending on the person. Also I wasn't sure if the Order would want a direct connection from an ordinary member to their demiplane. Having an intermediate area separating the merchants and the Order seemed like a good idea. But flavour it the way you want.
Frankly, when I read the description of a ring gate, putting the other end in a magic shop was the first thing I thought of.
Peet
The gates for a demiplane are certainly valid, but you can just hand someone a ring gate. Each addition of a portal in the demiplane requires a new casting of the spell greater create demiplane, greater and you may need to re-pay the permanency cost after that to make the gates you added permanent... I'm not sure. It seems likely that if you made changes to a demiplane after you made it permanent you would have to re-pay the permanency cost. If not though it would certainly be cheaper just to add more portals.
Part of the idea is that the ring gates make it easy to transfer objects but not as easy to move people through them. Even with reduce person they may still be a little too tight, depending on the person. Also I wasn't sure if the Order would want a direct connection from an ordinary member to their demiplane. Having an intermediate area separating the merchants and the Order seemed like a good idea. But flavour it the way you want.
Frankly, when I read the description of a ring gate, putting the other end in a magic shop was the first thing I thought of.
Peet
1) Nothing says the demiplane portals have to be stationary. Also, you can make them whatever size you want.
2) You only pay the permanency cost once. Then you can recast the spell to alter, which includes adding/removing doors. Says so in the spell.
3) you could always have the entrance and exit right next to each other. Effectively functioning like a ring gate, but without the distance limitation. Hell, if you only used the deplane this way it would be far more cost effective than purchasing a crap ton of ring gates. Perhaps everyone is just told they're using ring gates, but it's in fact a small planar portal.
4)With a permanent demiplane you can have an effect that makes the casting of a spell effectively permanent. Lots of fun protective shenanigans can be done with that. No stronghold in the world would be as secure.
It's your world and you can do what you like. I'm just saying logistically a demiplane makes more sense as well as being far more cost efficient.
just my 2C.
The more I think about this idea, the more I want to run a high level campaign which is a heist game. A sort of Ocean's Eleven group of criminal PCs who have teamed up to rob the AEOA's secret extraplanar vault.
They could have a number of adventures tracking down the tools, resources and information that they might need before they even begin tackling the vault.
The more I think about this idea, the more I want to run a high level campaign which is a heist game. A sort of Ocean's Eleven group of criminal PCs who have teamed up to rob the AEOA's secret extraplanar vault.
They could have a number of adventures tracking down the tools, resources and information that they might need before they even begin tackling the vault.
I like this idea.
1) Nothing says the demiplane portals have to be stationary. Also, you can make them whatever size you want.Actually this one is not true. It says specifically:
Portal: Your demiplane gains a permanent gate to one location on another plane, which can only be used for planar travel. This location must be very familiar to you. This gate is always open and usable from both sides, but you can secure it using normal means (such as by building a door around it).
Making a permanent gate to one location pretty clearly indicates that you can't move the gate. Also, since the caster has to be very familiar with the destination, it is unlikely that all the members of the Order would have houses or shops that are "very familiar" to the caster. The advantage of a ring gate is that you can just hand it to someone and they can take it home.
2) You only pay the permanency cost once. Then you can recast the spell to alter, which includes adding/removing doors. Says so in the spell.
Yeah looking at it now my reading is only castings that increase the area of the spell need to be made permanent; other castings have an instantaneous duration.
3) you could always have the entrance and exit right next to each other. Effectively functioning like a ring gate, but without the distance limitation. Hell, if you only used the deplane this way it would be far more cost effective than purchasing a crap ton of ring gates. Perhaps everyone is just told they're using ring gates, but it's in fact a small planar portal.
I don't really understand what you mean by "having the entrance and exit next to each other." A permanent teleportation effect that transports you to a location right next to you isn't much use. If you are talking about the "length" of the "tunnel" connecting the demiplane to the material plane, there isn't any. You are either in the demiplane or you aren't. And the gates don't have an "entrance" and "exit;" they are two-way, just like ring gates.
4)With a permanent demiplane you can have an effect that makes the casting of a spell effectively permanent.
I don't see any text in the spell that supports that statement. Maybe I am missing something? You can make the area an "enhanced magic" area, but that doesn't let you make spells permanent at will.
There's one more problem. That is, you can cast the spell to adjust a demiplane that you have created yourself. What if the original creator is long dead? Remember that the ORder has been around for over a thousand years. Is there a way to "take over" someone else's ongoing spell?
The more I think about this idea, the more I want to run a high level campaign which is a heist game. A sort of Ocean's Eleven group of criminal PCs who have teamed up to rob the AEOA's secret extraplanar vault.
They could have a number of adventures tracking down the tools, resources and information that they might need before they even begin tackling the vault.
Yeah, this would be really cool. It would be the kind of game where pretty much "anything goes" as far as what the players are allowed to attempt. It would take a really good GM with lots of system mastery to make it work though.
I don't really understand what you mean by "having the entrance and exit next to each other." A permanent teleportation effect that transports you to a location right next to you isn't much use. If you are talking about the "length" of the "tunnel" connecting the demiplane to the material plane, there isn't any. You are either in the demiplane or you aren't.
Imagine you have a gate to your demiplane in Paris and another gate to your demiplane in New York. However in your demiplane, these two gates are parallel to one another and about ten centimeters apart. A person in Paris could reach through their gate and out through the other gate handing a scroll to someone over in New York.
I think that's what he means anyway.
Yeah, this would be really cool. It would be the kind of game where pretty much "anything goes" as far as what the players are allowed to attempt. It would take a really good GM with lots of system mastery to make it work though.The more I think about this idea, the more I want to run a high level campaign which is a heist game. A sort of Ocean's Eleven group of criminal PCs who have teamed up to rob the AEOA's secret extraplanar vault.
They could have a number of adventures tracking down the tools, resources and information that they might need before they even begin tackling the vault.
Challenge accepted!
Well, actually no, I've just started Carrion Crown so I've probably got a long while before my next campaign. However that's exactly the sort of thing to say that makes me really want to give it a try.
1) Nothing says the demiplane portals have to be stationary. Also, you can make them whatever size you want.Actually this one is not true. It says specifically:Portal: Your demiplane gains a permanent gate to one location on another plane, which can only be used for planar travel. This location must be very familiar to you. This gate is always open and usable from both sides, but you can secure it using normal means (such as by building a door around it).Making a permanent gate to one location pretty clearly indicates that you can't move the gate. Also, since the caster has to be very familiar with the destination, it is unlikely that all the members of the Order would have houses or shops that are "very familiar" to the caster. The advantage of a ring gate is that you can just hand it to someone and they can take it home.
Each gate goes to one location. Nowhere does it say you can only have one gate.
To become very familiar the caster would just have to do some traveling.
3) you could always have the entrance and exit right next to each other. Effectively functioning like a ring gate, but without the distance limitation. Hell, if you only used the deplane this way it would be far more cost effective than purchasing a crap ton of ring gates. Perhaps everyone is just told they're using ring gates, but it's in fact a small planar portal.I don't really understand what you mean by "having the entrance and exit next to each other." A permanent teleportation effect that transports you to a location right next to you isn't much use. If you are talking about the "length" of the "tunnel" connecting the demiplane to the material plane, there isn't any. You are either in the demiplane or you aren't. And the...
Two doorways. The front of each flat against each other. So as you enter the first one you're also exiting the second one. You'd only be in the demiplane for about 1/16th of an inch (or whatever).
The permanent magic thing takes a little more digging. The spell mentions planar traits you can have. If you look at planar traits in the DM guild you'll find that one you qualify for is the "Timeless" trait. This can apply to several things, but in this case I'd have it apply to magic. Or if you want to be more careful have it apply to magic cast only by people who have a specific token or what not.
Creating your own demiplane can get pretty powerful/wonky, but remember these things only apply on the plane itself. Most of the time this won't affect your game world in any way. Unless of course someone is stupid enough to attack your well fortified demiplane.
Does that clarify?
I don't really understand what you mean by "having the entrance and exit next to each other." A permanent teleportation effect that transports you to a location right next to you isn't much use. If you are talking about the "length" of the "tunnel" connecting the demiplane to the material plane, there isn't any. You are either in the demiplane or you aren't.Imagine you have a gate to your demiplane in Paris and another gate to your demiplane in New York. However in your demiplane, these two gates are parallel to one another and about ten centimeters apart. A person in Paris could reach through their gate and out through the other gate handing a scroll to someone over in New York.
I think that's what he means anyway.
Yup. That's basically it.
I created something similar for my 20th level Mystic Theurge (Sparel Radymah) who worshiped the elven goddess with the travel domain. It was mostly a plot device so there are a few small points that are unique. Namely the caretaker function and the caretakers ability to open doors as a standard action. Basically the caretaker in this instance was an ally who the goddess vouched for. Sparel made him caretaker to preserve his life, among other things.
The Greater Create Demiplane spell is VERY powerful, but not so much when you consider that 95% of the abilities are limited to the plane itself. Basically building your own plane should leave plenty of room for creativity.
The plane is identical to the material plane in regard to light and gravity, however spells cannot be cast and magic items cannot be activated while in the plane. Continuous effects or items continue to function normally.
The doors are opened and closed on a set schedule by the Caretaker (explained below). Some doors remain open for a long period of time. A small stand sits just inside the doorway where a toll can be collected. The prices vary with need and ability to pay. For example Wealthy Merchants will pay more than a poor family who wishes to visit a relative. The toll is usually collected by a simulacrum of the caretaker (or some suspect the caretaker himself).
The plane's creator designed the place to have a caretaker. The person so designated (a special ritual requiring a drop of the Plane plane creators blood) has free use of spellcasting and magic items. Additionally for this person and by default Sparel the magic trait is treated as Timeless. In other words durations on spells they cast are permanent until dispelled. Additionally, the caretaker does not age or require food (though they can still eat if they choose). The designated caretaker is in all ways treated as the creator of the plane and can alter the morphology as described in the "Create Greater Demiplane" spell. Caretaker has a permanent telepathy effect to Sparel so they can speak as needed.
Finally, the ritual imbues the caretaker with the ability to create and remove doors as they see fit as a standard action. The ability is treated as the Create Greater Demiplane Spell
The doors open and close, are created and removed, on an as needed basis. The caretaker has been known to open a doorway to negotiate a trade agreement with worthy nations.
This plane serves multiple purposes, but the main two are this. It encourages travel by those who wouldn't otherwise be able to, thus falling in line with his goddesses tenants. Also, it allows Sparel some means to assist worthy nations with financial matters.
Yeah, this would be really cool. It would be the kind of game where pretty much "anything goes" as far as what the players are allowed to attempt. It would take a really good GM with lots of system mastery to make it work though.The more I think about this idea, the more I want to run a high level campaign which is a heist game. A sort of Ocean's Eleven group of criminal PCs who have teamed up to rob the AEOA's secret extraplanar vault.
They could have a number of adventures tracking down the tools, resources and information that they might need before they even begin tackling the vault.
Challenge accepted!
Well, actually no, I've just started Carrion Crown so I've probably got a long while before my next campaign. However that's exactly the sort of thing to say that makes me really want to give it a try.
If you do this I would LOVE to be a part of it.