Constrict Order of Operations

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

Hey guys!

Building a Grapple rogue with a White Haired Witch dip. Just a question about what takes place first.

Assuming I have an opponent grappled, on my turn I attempt to pin my target and succeed in the check.

Now, does he become pinned, and then constrict damage happens? Or does he take the constrict damage and then become pinned? This is important for Sneak Attack, a pinned opponent is denied dexterity bonus and is thus a suitable target for Sneak Attack.

Another question. Sneak attack doesn't really give any requirements as to what can trigger it, it simply says "his/her attack". Does choosing to deal damage while grappling/pinning count as an attack for the purposes of sneak attack? Another one is constrict. It is called a "special attack" in its definition, will it trigger sneak attack damage (assuming other conditions are met?)

Note: this does not replace the strangler feat. Sneak attack originally requires the opponent to be pinned, strangler lets you deal SA damage to a grappled opponent.

Thanks in advance guys!

[thenobledrake]

PRD wrote:

Constrict (Ex) A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, when it makes a successful grapple check (in addition to any other effects caused by a successful check, including additional damage).

The portion I bolded answers your question: the constrict damage is part of the check resulting in the pin, not something that happens "after".

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

The part that tripped me up was the "in addition" wording almost implies "after". But I'll go with your interpretation, most conservative and safest to play by :).

Any thoughts on if it can cause Sneak Attack to trigger like I expect?

[Seraphimpunk]

get sneak attack on a constrict ?
not usually.

there's feats in UC to let a grappler deal sneak attack damage at some point.
if that's enough to point you in the direction of where to find it .

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

It is, I've seen it quite a bit. To be honest, I'm considering whether a one or two level dip in White Haired Witch would be worth it. So the question is whether or not the constrict is worth it for levle two.

If constrict is an attack... It kinda feels like it should be able to have sneak attack applied to it. But then, if that were true, maintaining a pin twice in a round with greater grapple and choosing to deal damage while having constrict would deal 4 sneak attacks worth of damage. If this was true, a second level of White Haired Witch would be worth it.

[BigNorseWolf]

Never seen a grappling rogue.

Are you sure it works? You don't flank the person you're holding (since you don't threaten squares) without tenacious grapple or some feat I'm not aware of that does the same thing.

[Seraphimpunk]

exactly. you can't really flank with a grapple.

the one i'm thinking of from UC is Strangler. And since that requires you to spend a swift action to get your sneak attack, there's no danger of getting 4 x your sneak attack in a round with it.
You typically lose your ability to flank by grappling, as part of the Grappled condition which you and your target gain. Your target in a grapple is also not denied their dex bonus like they were in 3.5, you need to pin them to do that. So a grapple-pinner and a rogue can work well together.

UC > Strangler wrote:

Strangler (Combat)

Throttling the life out of enemies is second nature to you.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, sneak attack +1d6, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike.
Benefit: Whenever you successfully maintain a grapple and choose to deal damage, you can spend a swift action to deal your sneak attack damage to the creature you are grappling.

so if you maintain, and have constrict, you could maintain , deal damage, deal constrict damage, and as a swift action, deal sneak attack damage.

but you wouldn't be dealing sneak attack damage ON your grapple or constrict attacks.

[thenobledrake]

I am pretty sure Strangler provides another situation in which a character can inflict sneak attack damage, rather than illustrating the only time a character can deal sneak attack damage while grappling.

The pinned condition provides for a rogue to grapple their opponent, maintain the grapple and pin their opponent, and then maintain the grapple to inflict damage - which is a valid sneak attack because the target is denied their dexterity bonus to AC.

The Strangler feat just makes it so you can grapple an opponent, maintain the grapple to deal damage, and throw in your sneak attack damage - despite not actually meeting the normal requirements of a target denied its Dexterity bonus to AC - for the cost of a swift action.

[Seraphimpunk]

for the OP's order of operations question, i've usually seen the Constrict trigger as part of the action for maintaining the grapple / making the grapple check.

so you'd probably : roll to pin, constrict as part of that, and then the target is pinned ( so no sneak attack on that ),

Strangler is nice to deal sneak attack with maintaining and with pinning. Not the only way, but its harder when a rogue has to pin someone all by themselves.
otherwise you're spending 1 round to grapple, 1 round to pin, and then when you maintain the target is denied dex and you can use your maintain action to deal damage.

with strangler, you can be dealing sneak attack damage on round 2 and 3 instead of just round 2.

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

So, 4x sneak attacks to a pinned target with constrict?