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I was wondering if anyone else has experience running a two party campaign model where one party are standard adult adventurers and the second party is comprised of young adventurers using the mechanics provided by Paizo?
In one of the last series of adventures I ran, I tied together a few modules (Into the Haunted Forest, Hallows Last Hope, and Crown of the Kobold King) into a campaign that introduced the players and their characters to Falcon's Hallow which would be their primary stomping grounds. During this process, I also built (using the young character mechanics introduced by Piazo) the youths that disappear during the Crown of the Kobold King adventure.
As a part of the Hallows Last Hope and the beginning of the Crown of the Kobold King adventures, I had each of my players take control of one of the youths and ran a very toned down adventure centered around the various back stories provided by the modules. In this way, the characters learned about the children, grew attached to them, and, when they were ambushed and kidnapped by a group of kobolds, it made it all the more terrifying. Lets just say I have never seen players more motivated to rescue a group of NPCs that could provide them neither reward or prestige.
Granted, part of the adventure module involves investigating what happened to the children in the first place, but I was playing with a group that has a surprising ability to compartmentalize (as well as hold their liquor while still roleplaying).
After the Crown of the Kobold King, I started getting into some homebrewed adventures involved with the town and basically biding time for Revenge of the Kobold King. I was surprised to find my players basically claimed Falcon's Hallow as their new hometown, bought out Jak'a'Napes and (using downtime mechanics) poured much of their gold into making "The Green Drake" the new hot spot of Falcon's Hallow. They even went so far as to hire a couple of the children they played as to run the stables and serve tables. The party's fighter even hired Hollin's sister to serve tables to get her away from her life of prostitution (which was a fun little adventure in and of itself involving a show of force and a muddy brawl). The party paladin took Jurin Kreed under his wing, and the party wizard began tutoring Savram Vade.
All in all, very rewarding.
This is, very interesting, was this two party model your idea or something in the books I missed? Either way, this seems like a wonderful idea.
This is, very interesting, was this two party model your idea or something in the books I missed? Either way, this seems like a wonderful idea.
I hadn't seen it before but I am sure it has to exist somewhere... right? I think it takes the right sort of party and GM to run successfully. Not every player is going to feel comfortable taking control of a child character, but for the challenges they overcame as their child characters they also received boons (minor game bonuses) for their normal characters. Examples included one time skill rerolls (really helped when they ran into the forge spurned), bonuses on interactions with the missing children, and a few supplies the children were carrying (a couple potions) that were given to the main characters as thanks.
I had equipped Hollin a wooden carving and a few odds and ends, along with a brief description that said he liked to do woodcarving. His player used the carving and a few other pieces of random "junk" I had equipped him with to leave a bit of a trail for someone to follow after the children were kidnapped by the kobolds. The wooden carving was found by the same player (the fighter who had considerable tracking ability) and ended up keeping it as a souvenir. Players can get really attached to things that others might see as trivial. It was cool.
I haven't done this specifically, but it was pretty standard in the old days of 1st ed to run multiple parties simultaneously in campaigns. Usually once the 1st party gets into levels 12+ and spent a lot of time kingdom building and researching, their kids or apprentices would take over a lot of the adventuring as a new low level group. That worked well so what you are talking about should work as well.
Sounds fun to play the challenge of young characters.
I've kinda wanted to play a young street rat who was recruited when a thief new to the area took over the local orphanage. He enhanced it with a training room and started training his own thieves guild, I hadn't really thought of why he left before his training was completed and he was officially, "adventuring age" But it is something I wanna do, preferably in a larger group where my lack of class features won't get everybody killed.
Any chance you could post the young ones stats/sheets? It's a great idea..
It's just NPC class levels, and an age category, it's not that complicated.
Interesting.
I've used a multi-party model before (and am actually in the midst of a multi-party campaign arc in a homebrew campaign), but never with the young adventurers stuff.
With the right group, this could be really cool.
Thanks for sharing.
-TimD
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Any chance you could post the young ones stats/sheets? It's a great idea..
Here are the stats for the kids from Falcon's Hallow I put together for my players. I used the warrior, expert, and tweaked the adept into a Cha, Wis, and Int based version to fit the needs of all five children. The flavor text and background information is the same from the module Crown of the Kobold King, but I was surprised at how much the players inferred and built upon from these simple NPC outlines. I equipped the characters based on their picture in the module and their backgrounds. Feel free to use them if you find them useful.
Kimi Eavewalker is a twelve year-old half-elf girl with raven hair and piercing green eyes.
Female half-elf warrior 1
NG Medium humanoid (human, elf)
Init +1; Senses low-light vision; Perception +4
Defense
AC 12, touch 11, flat-footed 11 (+1 armor, +1 Dex)
HP 10 (1d10)
Fort +2, Ref +1, Will +2 (+4 vs. enchantments); Immune sleep
Offense
Speed 30 ft. (ignore difficult terrain in forests)
Melee club +2 (1d6+1) or dagger +2 (1d4+1) or unarmed +2 (1d4+1)
Ranged dagger +2 (1d4+1)
Statistics
Str 13, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10
BAB +1; CMB +3; CMD 13
Feats Improved Unarmed Strike, Skill Focus (Survival)
Skills Intimidate +4, Stealth +1 (+5 in forests), Survival +10
Trait Poverty-Stricken
Languages Common, Elven
SQ adaptability, elf blood, elven immunities, forest affinity*, keen senses, low-light vision, young
Equipment area map, belt pouch, club, compass, dagger, flint and steel, leather vest, peasant's outfit; 1 sp, 3 cp
*Adapted or Modified for Campaign
Daughter of the famed elven ranger Idris and a beautiful seamstress named Kitani, Kimi has not seen her father in two years. The ranger is constantly away adventuring and tracking down relics for a mysterious patron. Kimi idolizes her dad and has grown into a fearless tomboy chomping at the bit to follow in her father's adventurous footsteps as soon as she is old enough to wield a sword. Kimi is the protector of her band of friends, often scrapping with boys twice her age who try to bully the others. She usually wins these bouts, and many of the town's children are afraid of her.
Hollin Hebbradan is a freakily faced 10 year-old boy missing his two front teeth (from a bad spill off the waterwheel at the old mill).
Male human expert 1
CN Medium humanoid (human)
Init +3; Senses Perception +4
Defense
AC 14, touch 14, flat-footed 10 (+3 Dex, +1 dodge)
HP 8 (1d8)
Fort +0, Ref +3, Will +2
Offense
Speed 30 ft.
Melee woodcarving knife +4 (1d4)
Ranged woodcarving knife +4 (1d4)
Statistics
Str 10, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 13, Wis 11, Cha 13
BAB +0; CMB +3; CMD 13
Feats Dodge, Weapon Finesse
Skills Acrobatics +7, Bluff +5, Craft (woodworking) +5, Escape Artist +7, Knowledge (local) +5, Perception +4, Sleight of Hand +9, Stealth +9
Trait Rough and Ready
Languages Common, Orc
SQ heart of the slums
Equipment belt pouch, cards, dice, peasant's outfit, wooden block, wooden carving (value 6 cp), woodcarving knife (dagger); 4 cp
Hollin's mother died in childbirth and his father was savaged by an owlbear two years ago. Now Hollin's older sister, a beautiful young red-headed woman named Ralla, looks after him. The two have struggled to make ends meet and rumor has it Ralla works in one of the pleasure dens on Mud Street to keep food on the table. Hollin is a skilled woodcarver and he manages to earn a few copper pieces hawking his statuettes. The boy's only aspiration is to grow up faster and work the cutyards so his sister won't have to set foot in a brothel ever again. He holds a personal grudge against the half-orc Kabran Bloodeye who runs the Rouge Lady, the brothel his sister works at.
Mikra Jabbs is the thirteen year-old son of the town butcher, Colbrin Jabbs, and his difficult childbirth resulted in several mental deficiencies.
Male human adept 1
NG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +0; Senses Perception +2
Defense
AC 10, touch 10, flat-footed 10
HP 10 (1d6+4)
Fort +3, Ref +0, Will +2
Offense
Speed 30 ft.
Melee cleaver +1 (1d6+1)
Ranged none
Adept Spells Prepared (CL 1st; concentration +4)*
1st--charm person (DC 14), silent image (DC 14), unseen servant
0th (at will)—mage hand, message, spark
Statistics
Str 13, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 16
BAB +0; CMB +1; CMD 11
Feats Great Fortitude, Toughness
Skills Diplomacy +8, Profession (butcher) +4, Profession (cook) +4
Trait Ease of Faith
Languages Common (speak only)
SQ illiterate, skills, spells
Equipment belt pouch, backpack, cleaver, marbles, mess kit, peasant's outfit, potatoes (2 lbs), seasoning (for stew), smoked meat (5 lbs); 2 cp
*Adapted or Modified for Campaign
Tall and gangly, Mikra has dark hair and eyes, a pale complexion, and always wears a grin. The boy cannot read, is easily confused, and believes almost everything he is told. He is well liked by everyone. While not incredibly bright, Mikra possesses limitless kindness and his bright smile wins the hearts of almost anyone who meets him. Though the oldest of the bunch, Mikra is looked after by the others. Unbeknownst to all but his close group of friends, Mikra has begun to manifest some natural arcane talent. However, criminals and other sinister individuals (like Jurin Kreed's father, Thuldrin) might seek to use Mikra for their own personal gain if he is discovered.
Jurin Kreed is the eleven year-old son of the wealthiest, most powerful, and evilest man in Falcon's Hallow.
Male human adept 1
NG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +0; Senses Perception +7
Defense
AC 11, touch 11, flat-footed 10 (+1 Dex)
HP 6 (1d6)
Fort +0, Ref +1, Will +6 (+2 vs. scrying and mind reading)
Offense
Speed 30 ft.
Melee mwk dagger +1 (1d4)
Ranged mwk dagger +2 (1d4)
Adept Spells Prepared (CL 1st; concentration +3)
1st—cause fear (DC 13), command (DC 13), cure light wounds
0th (at will)—create water, light, stabilize
Statistics
Str 10, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 12
BAB +0; CMB +1; CMD 11
Feats Careful Speaker, Iron Will
Skills Knowledge (local) +4, Knowledge (religion) +4, Perception +7, Spellcraft +4
Trait Seeker
Languages Common
SQ skills, spells
Equipment belt pouch, book of fables, bottle of applejack, courtier's outfit, holy symbol of Iomedae, mwk dagger, potion cure light wounds; 5 sp, 7 cp
Jurin is torn between his family and friends. In public, Jurin behaves insufferably; snarling at the other children and threatening to have his dad's bodyguards beat them if they don't do everything he says. People wonder why the other children don't simply avoid the spoiled bully, but Colbrin Jabbs knows the boy has a good heart deep down, and in private would do anything to help his friends. Jurin spends many hours at the Jabb's house reading to his son Mikra in the afternoons. Jurin has also recently, and secretly, apprenticed himself to a local cleric of Iomedae. He knows without a doubt he would face the wrath of his father if his interest in the divine were discovered.
Savram Vade is the nine year-old son of the mysterious wizard Sharvaros Vade, a powerful political figure in Falcon's Hallow due to his connections to the Kreed family.
Male human adept 1
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +1; Senses Perception +1
Defense
AC 11, touch 11, flat-footed 10 (+1 Dex)
HP 6 (1d6)
Fort +0, Ref +1, Will +5
Offense
Speed 30 ft.
Melee unarmed strike -1 (1d3-1 nonlethal)
Ranged Touch ray of frost +1 (1d3 cold)
Adept Spells Prepared (CL 1st; concentration +4)*
1st—grease (DC 14), magic missile, sleep (DC 14)
0th (at will)—detect magic, prestidigitation, ray of frost (DC 13)
Statistics
Str 9, Dex 12, Con 10, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 10
BAB +0; CMB +0; CMD 10
Feats Eschew Materials, Iron Will
Skills Craft (alchemy) +7, Knowledge (arcana) +7, Knowledge (local) +7, Knowledge (nature) +7, Knowledge (religion) +7, Sense Motive +6, Spellcraft +7
Trait Suspicious
Languages Common, Draconic, Elven, Orc
SQ skills, spells
Equipment belt pouch, blanket of endure elements, peasant's outfit, scroll of sleep; 2 sp, 2 cp
*Adapted or Modified for Campaign
Small for his age, Savram has long black hair and piercing onyx eyes. Savram is quiet and withdrawn, but the brightness of his eyes betrays intelligence far beyond his years. When he is old enough he will no doubt follow his father into the cryptic life of a wizard. However, his father delves deep into the forbidden black arts of necromancy, a place young Savram is reluctant to tread. Savram knows displeasing his father may end with him abandoned or worse, a part of his father's vile experiments with undeath.
Thank you for sharing !
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Thank you for sharing !
No problem. Also, I figured I would try linking the Young Characters Starting Ages Document I put together and uploaded to Google Docs. Since I am really bad at formatting tables, I figured this would be an easier medium. The table has starting ages for playing young characters of ALL the core, featured, and uncommon races. I used the core races to extrapolate similar and related races. Other races were figured out by comparing medium to small race differences in the core races, similar time scales, and a tiny bit of guessing. Let me know what you guys think.
PAz
Very interesting, but what's with the trained, intuitive and self taught? Is that personal idea, or a rule I missed when looking at the young characters in ultimate campaign
Very interesting, but what's with the trained, intuitive and self taught? Is that personal idea, or a rule I missed when looking at the young characters in ultimate campaign
Intuitive, Self-Taught, and Trained refer to starting ages for the various classes as presented in the core rules of the player's handbook. I just included the information on the sheet because sometimes it is difficult to track down that information for the featured or uncommon races. I probably should have just put the middle age, old, and venerable age category information instead.
Very interesting, but what's with the trained, intuitive and self taught? Is that personal idea, or a rule I missed when looking at the young characters in ultimate campaignIntuitive, Self-Taught, and Trained refer to starting ages for the various classes as presented in the core rules of the player's handbook. I just included the information on the sheet because sometimes it is difficult to track down that information for the featured or uncommon races. I probably should have just put the middle age, old, and venerable age category information instead.
I, don't remember that. I shall have to look. Thank you.
First, the two party thing sounds awesome and like a great way to get players to care about npcs.
Second, elf age charts just seems ridiculous. Are 55 year old elves really meant to be the equivalent of 8 year old humans? Do they also grow that slowly?
Second, elf age charts just seems ridiculous. Are 55 year old elves really meant to be the equivalent of 8 year old humans? Do they also grow that slowly?
I don't think whoever wrote up the rules for nonstandard aging (which didn't start with Paizo) studied developmental psychology. Otherwise they would have created some sort of concept based off of Erikson's stages of physical, cognitive, and psychosocial development. Basically, in that regard, you have several "childhood" age categories that go along with the adult age categories: Prenatal (covering pregnancy and gestation), Infant, Toddler, Early Childhood, Middle Childhood, Adolescence (young adult/adult), Emerging Adulthood (adult), Middle Adulthood (middle-age), and Late Adulthood (old/venerable). Each stage deals with various physical, cognitive, and social milestones.
It could be that elves have a slightly longer infant stage than humans and a MUCH longer toddler, early childhood, and middle childhood stage that makes up the bulk of the difference.
I am sure between our current knowledge of developmental and adolescent psychology and d20 system mechanics we can find some common ground for elves and other long-lived races.
It sounds like an interesting concept but would require way, way too much focus and planning than I can muster, not to mention I don't really like using the child PC rules (which I get why they are the way they are to simulate helplessness and lack of experience, but personally if I'm running a child game I would wanna get my Earthbound/Saturday morning cartoons on.)
I would like to see more options for playing young or childlike characters. Nothing says you CAN'T have young characters on par with adult characters; just that the rules, as they are now, suggest young characters be weaker.
I thought something like this might be awesome for Kingmaker, I haven't had a chance to play kingmaker yet, but the idea that the game could span generations just seems awesome.
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For your consideration: The Complete Age Chart
I am currently working on a chart for starting height and weight for young characters of every race. I am using "Anthropological Reference Date for Children and Adults: United States, 2007-2010" published through the American Sociological Association's Division of Health and Nutrition Examination Surveys. I hope to extrapolate a range for human male and human female height and weight, cross reference it with current d20 mechanics, and then extrapolate a new base for young human characters of both genders. From there, I will probably use a simple formula to extrapolate young character height and weight information for other races.
An initial treatment shows a strong relationship between currently proposed d20 mechanics and median ranges for 16+ year old individuals (Pathfinder Adult) but only for males. Females appear to be below height and underweight given current d20 rules. Adjusting female base height and weight to 4'6" and 100 lbs, respectively, would bring it in line with sociologically observed norms.
I hope to have a completed height and weight chart for young characters of all races fairly soon.
I hope to have a completed height and weight chart for young characters of all races fairly soon.
Cool. Thanks for this. I have been considering something akin to what you have been talking about & these will be very helpful for that.
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Also for your consideration: The Complete Height and Weight Chart
Using the aforementioned sociological study, by adjusting male adult base weight by 5 lbs. and increasing female base height and weight by 1 in. and 15 lbs., respectively, the minimum and maximum generated statistics fall within the 25th and 75th percentile of averages, respectively, and the average generated height and weight is within 1 in. and 5 lbs. of the median for 16+.
I adjusted races based on humans (mostly half and planetouched races) to the same degree for consistency, but saw no reason to adjust other races as they are based on their own (unobtainable) demographics.
I found by halving adult base weight and reducing adult base height by 12%, I was able to reasonably generate heights and weights that fell within the same 25th and 75th percentiles for male and female humans aged 9 to 15 (young character range). This allowed me to keep the normal modifier and weight modifier. The Complete Height and Weight Chart uses the above methods to generate base youth height and base youth weights for all core, featured, and uncommon races. The lowest end is meant to represent 9 year old (or their equivalent) characters, the median is meant to represent 12 year old (or their equivalent) characters, and the highest end is meant to represent 15 year old (or their equivalent) characters.
Keep in mind, girls tend to outpace boys in growth early in adolescence with boys catching up and outpacing girls later in adolescence. Likewise, growth spurts are common and these are not hard and fast rules for building or designing characters; merely a guideline. I give full and unlimited rights for anyone and everyone to make use of or completely ignore these two charts. OGL, blah, blah, blah, have fun, play nice.
Also for your consideration: The Complete Height and Weight Chart
You are freaking amazing.
Also for your consideration: The Complete Height and Weight ChartYou are freaking amazing.
You're welcome.
Oh? Please, do tell us more.
I am kicking around the idea of making young character (childish) archetypes for the NPC classes of adept, aristocrat, expert, and warrior. Basically creating proto-core classes with a childish bent that would give players and GMs more customization options when putting together young character campaigns. Same power level as the NPC classes but flavored and scaled for young characters to have a little something special going for them.
Thoughts?
I am kicking around the idea of making young character (childish) archetypes for the NPC classes of adept, aristocrat, expert, and warrior. Basically creating proto-core classes with a childish bent that would give players and GMs more customization options when putting together young character campaigns. Same power level as the NPC classes but flavored and scaled for young characters to have a little something special going for them.
Thoughts?
I don't know why I didn't see this post, but I LOVE the idea. I was toying with a retraining system myself with 1/3 levels being the actual core class with the other two being the NPC classes, but that was more of just a thought, an actual proto class, would be, wonderful, and given the quality of your work so far I'd love to see the results.