Adding multiple Abilities to Magic Arms and Armors

[Simon Hayes]

At fifth level a wizard can take the "Craft Magic Arms and Armor" feat.
Rules states that he can add only bonuses three time lower than his level, so in this case +1.
This means that he can only add +1 bonus and abilities that are worth a +1.
If he is adding a +1 bonus and a +1 ability they are counted separately, so is not a +2 sword.

What happens with a weapon with a +1 bonus and a +1 ability, can the 5th level wizard add another +1 ability, or the abilities bonus stack as the bonuses do?

[Matthew Downie]

Non-enhancement weapon bonuses do not work like enhancement bonuses for caster level. For example, the 'flaming' ability is caster level 10, no matter what it's stacked with. If you can craft something with CL 10, you can make a +1 Flaming Keen Holy Vicious Anarchic sword if you want.

[Jamie Charlan]

+1 flaming WILL cost the same to enchant as a +2 though, the requirements are a separate thing.

[Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan]

Simon Hayes wrote:

Rules states that he can add only bonuses three time lower than his level, so in this case +1.

This isn't exactly true. The 3x level is the prerequisite, but it can be overcome by raising the DC by 5.

[Seraphimpunk]

i always hated those.
you can bypass it by raising the DC by 5

but i always preferred those actual math requirements to be unbreakable in home games.
crafting rules suck =P

[Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan]

Seraphimpunk wrote:

i always hated those.

you can bypass it by raising the DC by 5

but i always preferred those actual math requirements to be unbreakable in home games.
crafting rules suck =P

Since the vast majority of games, are home games, I would guess the RAW is often followed.

Is your beef with the crafting rules, or the existence of crafting itself?

If it's the rules, then what alternate rules do you use?

If it's crafting altogether, how do your higher level PC's have the gear they are expected to have to face the encounters they will face?

I expect people will respond that they don't like magic marts, and they don't like PC's crafting stuff, but maybe having NPC's do it is ok, since that's at full price. Ok, fine, so the expectation is that the Fighter will turn over his +2 sword for the better part of a month to an NPC to get Holy added to it? A lot of campaigns don't have that sort of down time, and PC adventurers can't know they are going to have it at the end of a chapter of adventuring. You drop your sword off, along with 24k gp to get it magicked up. a week later, your work is nowhere near done, but the Lord Mayor has need of your party for an urgent task. Your choices are: 1) have no magic sword 2) buy a new magic sword 3) go get your magic sword and disrupt the crafting process, for which you have already paid, and cannot get your money back, and will then again in the future want to pay that 24k gp AGAIN.

I find the crafting rules to be mostly balanced, particularly with the increased crafting times required when "on the road." Sure there could be some tweaks, but it allows for a gradual increase in party power, which I find preferable to the huge increase that comes from hitting Magic Mart in Magnimar after an adventure, when at the same time everyone levels up. So the big power increases still happen at levelling time, but the gradual introduction of magic items to the group still provides a certain amount of "we're winning" for the group. And yes, I do mean for the group, as I don't view crafting as a self centered thing. Why wouldn't the wizard want his meat shield to have better armor and weapons?

[DM_Blake]

Simon Hayes wrote:

At fifth level a wizard can take the "Craft Magic Arms and Armor" feat.

Rules states that he can add only bonuses three time lower than his level, so in this case +1.
This means that he can only add +1 bonus and abilities that are worth a +1.
If he is adding a +1 bonus and a +1 ability they are counted separately, so is not a +2 sword.

What happens with a weapon with a +1 bonus and a +1 ability, can the 5th level wizard add another +1 ability, or the abilities bonus stack as the bonuses do?

Back to this.

First, he can only enchant a +1 enhancement bonus unless he wants to take a penalty. He could make +2, +3, +4 or even +5 weapons and the penalty is always the same: +5 to the Spellcraft DC that he must roll when he's finished.

This does not count the other abilities such as flaming, holy, keen, etc. - those all have their own caster level for adding them. Caster levels don't stack, so if he makes a +1 (3rd level) Keen (10th level) Bane (8th level) Holy (7th level) longsword, then the caster level is 10th. If he is 10th level, there is no penalty, if he's not yet 10th level then he adds +5 to the Spellcraft DC.

This longsword counts as a +5 weapon and would cost 50,315gp to buy or 25,315 to buy the masterwork sword and enchant it yourself. Either way, it takes 50 days to do the enchantment, but a crafter can "rush" the job by adding another +5 to the DC and can then finish in half the time.

Side note: if he made the same sword but it is +3 (caster level 9th), the caster levels still don't stack and it's still a 10th level sword (because of Keen). But if he made the same sword at +4 (12th level), now that is the highest caster level so the weapon is now a 12th level weapon and he needs to be 12th level or take the penalty.

Hopefully that clears it up for you.

[Majuba]

Everything DM_Blake said is correct, except only the actual Enhancement bonus is a prerequisite. If a 5th level wizard made a +1, flaming, bane, holy longsword, there would be no increase to the spellcraft DC for caster level (he meets the 3rd level prerequisite of a +1 weapon). He might have to bypass the requirement for holy smite (or possibly the spell requirements for the other abilities) though.

The DC is set by the highest CL (10th in that example) of course, as well as the caster level of the final item (for item saving throw bonuses and such).

[Seraphimpunk]

completely tangential:

DM_Blake wrote:

Simon Hayes wrote:

At fifth level a wizard can take the "Craft Magic Arms and Armor" feat.

Rules states that he can add only bonuses three time lower than his level, so in this case +1.
This means that he can only add +1 bonus and abilities that are worth a +1.
If he is adding a +1 bonus and a +1 ability they are counted separately, so is not a +2 sword.

What happens with a weapon with a +1 bonus and a +1 ability, can the 5th level wizard add another +1 ability, or the abilities bonus stack as the bonuses do?

Back to this.

First, he can only enchant a +1 enhancement bonus unless he wants to take a penalty. He could make +2, +3, +4 or even +5 weapons and the penalty is always the same: +5 to the Spellcraft DC that he must roll when he's finished.

This does not count the other abilities such as flaming, holy, keen, etc. - those all have their own caster level for adding them. Caster levels don't stack, so if he makes a +1 (3rd level) Keen (10th level) Bane (8th level) Holy (7th level) longsword, then the caster level is 10th. If he is 10th level, there is no penalty, if he's not yet 10th level then he adds +5 to the Spellcraft DC.

This longsword counts as a +5 weapon and would cost 50,315gp to buy or 25,315 to buy the masterwork sword and enchant it yourself. Either way, it takes 50 days to do the enchantment, but a crafter can "rush" the job by adding another +5 to the DC and can then finish in half the time.

Side note: if he made the same sword but it is +3 (caster level 9th), the caster levels still don't stack and it's still a 10th level sword (because of Keen). But if he made the same sword at +4 (12th level), now that is the highest caster level so the weapon is now a 12th level weapon and he needs to be 12th level or take the penalty.

Hopefully that clears it up for you.

beef is pretty much that example.

CL is confusingly listed with each magic item. leading you to think its some kind of prerequisite for creation. Requires some actual digging to realize its *not* a prerequisite.
and stuff that looks like its an absolute requirement ( like the CL must be 3x the enhancement bonus ) is just another requirement that can be bypassed with +5 to the DC.

then the base DC is 5 + the CL of the item ( not 10, where most DC's start ), so the 25k sword described by GM_Blake with a CL 10 has a base DC of 15. its only a +1 enhancement, so no prerequisites are being ignored to bump up the DC. so the 5th level wizard ( who presumably has full ranks in spellcraft for a base skill of +8 before stat modifiers ) can take 10 ( per faq ) and auto succeed on crafting the sword as long as he has the spells. there's zero chance for accidentally creating a cursed item or fouling up the process. at that point why require a check at all. a 5th level character can create a +5 equivalent weapon and is only really limited by the downtime necessary and resources.

magic item creation is a certainty

Even if he didn't have spells and needed to bypass some, with a base DC 15, a decent wizard ( 16 int, +2 headband by 5th level ) will really have a +12 spellcraft skill. so he can afford to ignore one spell he might not have in the crafting process, or speed up the crafting process.

* no crafter is going to use their craft skill for a magic item in liu of spellcraft.
* any caster that takes the feats is not going to have trouble making any magic item that they need as long as they have downtime and cash, with negligible chance of failure.
* the rules for magic item creation required several faqs to sort out requirements and prerequisites and are still confusing.

now, if the CL of the add ons like Holy, Bane, Keen were *actually* additional requirements, the base DC for that 5th level wizard would be about 30, well out of reach, besides the resources.

Its 10 x easier to make magic items than it is to repair them.
( Make Whole requires the CL of the caster to be 2x the CL of the item being repaired. So while a 5th level wizard can make Excalibur with time and money, it takes a 20th level wizard to repair excalibur. )

Thats a little out of whack, don't you think?

[Majuba]

Tangent:

That's why I think the allowance for Taking 10 on crafting checks is absurd. Crafting shouldn't be *HARD* - it should be virtually automatic if you are crafting something level appropriate (see CL of item), and have full ranks in spellcraft. But if you're skimping on prereqs, or reaching far ahead, it should be chancy to some extent. Take 10 removes that entirely - either you will succeed, or you won't try at all.