Okay, so, for the most part charging while mounted seems relatively simple if all you are doing is making an attack, but the feats start to make things very weird and I would appreciate if anyone could give me some clarity on these questions.
(1) Overrun. Lets say that I have the Spirited Charge, Charge Through, Improved Overrun and Trample feats. I am charging a target and attempting to overrun a secondary target that is in the way. Whose Overrun CMB do I use? My assumption is that I use my own (the rider) rather than the mount's, but that seems odd.
(2) Now, say I am using a Lance and I have Greater Overrun in addition to the feats above. I succeed at the Overrun check. My target falls prone, and provokes an AoO. Do I use the multiplied Lance Damage on this AoO? I would presume that I do not since it is an AoO, but I would like to be sure.
(3) Can I get this attack at all with a Lance? It seems like you enter an adjacent square to initiate the Overrun so the creature would likely be too close to attack with an AoO right? Or does my reach matter when attempting an overrun?
(4) Same situation, target is knocked prone by a successful overrun, with greater overrun it states that the target provokes. So, with trample, does the mount get 2 attacks? (1 from trample and 1 from greater overrun?) With only 1 of them being an AoO?
(5) More about the Lance. Does it multiply everything? As in, does it multiply precision damage? The Bonus from Rhino Hide? Elemental enchantments like Flaming? My assumption is that it does not, but that it would multiply all the static bonuses (Inspire Courage, Strength, Power Attack, Enhancement etc.) I make this assumption based on how some other abilities work, (like crits) but I could be wrong. Lance and spirited charge don't make any exceptions.
Any insight or links to dev posts or precedent etc would be very helpful. I look forward to one of you rules-savvy posters clearing all this up for me!
The Mounted Combat rules are a bit of a mess so I will try to make sense of them but interpretations may vary.
1) Overrun is your CMB if you are the one with the feats. If your mount has the feats it makes the CMB checks.
2) Making attacks of opportunity while charging is not the same as making a charge attack at the end of that charge. This is based on the following quote:
If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge.
3) You will not be able make that AoO with a Lance unless you have a way (such as the Dragoon's level 7 ability "Spinning Lance") to use a lance against adjacent targets.
4) Greater Overrun does not state *who* being knocked prone provokes from so it would appear to provoke from everyone.
Based on the interpretation that it is from everyone able to attack then there will be the following sequence:
Overrun = knocked prone, AoO (mount), AoO (rider), Trample (mount via Rider's feat).
5) This one at least is easier, only the normal damage dice are multiplied (Bonus dice are never multiplied). So, you do not multiply Rhino Hide, precision damage, or Elemental enchantments.
Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modif iers) multiple times and total the results.
Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. So if you are asked to double the damage twice, the end result is three times the normal damage.
Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are never multiplied.
- Gauss
(1)Ask your GM. I seem to recall JJ saying use whichever you like, but I don't have a link. Technically, though, your mount needs Charge Through if you want to use it on a mounted charge. Same with Imp Overrun to avoid the AoO. (Actually, you both need Imp OR if you both want to avoid the AoO)
(2) Tougher, I would say no as it's not your charge attack.
(3) Good catch, reach totally matters all the time. Your mount would, necessarily, be adjacent to the target of the overrun so your Lance wouldn't threaten.
(4)Yes, two attacks.
(5)Precision damage and additional dice are never multiplied (including the additional dice from enchantments like Flaming and Rhino Hide). Everything else is multiplied. This applies any time you would multiply damage for any reason.
Thank you for the replies. A lot of what I expected to hear, but I had to ask. Oddly enough, I have only had one mounted character in a game before, but they never used a any of these abilities, they just used a big two-hander. (this was before the FAQ came out about Lances getting 1.5 str/power attack damage when wielded in 1 hand)
So does my mount truly need Imp. Overrun and Charge Through in addition to the rider having those feats?
Its a bit of a weird scenario, if the rider is making the check, then per RAW it seems hard to believe that the mount would avoid an AoO even if it did have imp. overrun, unless both are considered to be making the maneuver at the same time, but I can live with this. Its a little funky and seems like a steep tax to use charge through while mounted, but I can see why that would be the case.
@Gauss: I figured that the Lance wouldn't get multipliers, but I felt like I should ask because of the way its worded: "A lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount." which falls in line with spirited charge which has this wording: "When mounted and using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a lance)."
Both of these read like they modify any attack made during a charge action and not just at the end of that action. I know they clarified Pounce (or errata'd pounce is more like it since it works with every other charge bonus) but I wasn't sure about this.
My interpretation is really that AoOs pretty much always act as interrupts rather than "part of" another action. SO a cavalier with mighty charge can get a free Trip against their charge target, but even with Greater Trip, the AoO they get would be an interrupt and not part of the charge.
One last question:
(6) The Mounted Mastery(Ex) ability from Order of the Sword says that when making a charge attack the Cavalier can "add his mount's Strength modifier to the damage roll, in addition to his own". This ability is awesome no matter how you slice it, but it says "in addition to his own". Does this mean that this bonus is treated like his own strength modifier and multiplied by 1.5 when the cavalier is using a Two-Handed weapon?
6) No, because the mount is not adding its Strength modifier to your Strength modifier. The mount is adding its Strength modifier to the damage roll. It is only your Strength modifier that is multiplied by 1.5.
Exceptions: Off-hand attacks receive only half the character's Strength bonus, while two-handed attacks receive 1–1/2 times the Strength bonus. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies to attacks made with a bow that is not a composite bow.)
- Gauss
Thanks Gauss, that is how I assumed it worked. It is always good to have some confirmation though. It always makes me feel better when I am putting a character together.
Halfling Order of the Sword Cavalier, Here I come!
Lord Malkov, I suggest taking the Emissary archetype. It comes with a lot of bonus feats and mounted combat abilities.
My Halfling Cavalier Build has the Emissary archetype and Order of the Sword.
His Boar takes either the Overrun/Charge Through tree or the Dragon Style tree (only up to Dragon Style).
Feats up to level 9:
1) Power Attack and Mounted Combat
3) Weapon Focus <Lance> (optional)
5) Ride-By Attack and Mobility
6) Spirited Charge
7) Lunge (optional)
8) Skill Focus (Ride)
9) Trick Riding and ??
Boar's feats (format: Overrun/Dragon Style) up to Cavalier level 9:
1-1hd) Power Attack and Armor Training <light>
2-3hd) Improved Overrun/??
5-5hd) Charge Through/Improved Unarmed Strike and Mobility
8-7hd) Greater Overrun/Dragon Style
You have to wait until level 5 before taking feats such as Improved Unarmed Strike because you have to bump the Boar's intelligence up to 3 (when the boar hits 4hd).
- Gauss
- Gauss
here's an interesting question. Could you and your mount take Coordinated Maneuvers (or apply it through the Tactician Ability) to get +2 on CMB while you are riding your mount? Seems legit to me.
As for dragon style, its not a bad idea... I was just going to drop the cash on some Horseshoes of a Zephyr, which I figure would cover terrain... but it doesn't actually say that it does, so perhaps dragon style is a better idea. That way I can get speed instead and charge like a speeding death train at 120ft.
I think I would also spring for Med Armor on the mount. Its a nice healthy jump in AC, and Furious Focus for me is a nice add.
Emissary seems pretty great. I am not too worried about losing the banner. Tactician is pretty cool though. THe synergy with Coordinated charge is pretty crazy.
here's an interesting question. Could you and your mount take Coordinated Maneuvers (or apply it through the Tactician Ability) to get +2 on CMB while you are riding your mount? Seems legit to me.
As for dragon style, its not a bad idea... I was just going to drop the cash on some Horseshoes of a Zephyr, which I figure would cover terrain... but it doesn't actually say that it does, so perhaps dragon style is a better idea. That way I can get speed instead and charge like a speeding death train at 120ft.
I think I would also spring for Med Armor on the mount. Its a nice healthy jump in AC, and Furious Focus for me is a nice add.
Emissary seems pretty great. I am not too worried about losing the banner. Tactician is pretty cool though. THe synergy with Coordinated charge is pretty crazy.
Yes. You can certainly use teamwork feats with your mount.
Coordinated Charge is certainly nice, but ultimately it requires someone to charge with you. For that you would need the right composition of people in your group.
For me, the tradeoff of what I get with Emissary is worth the loss of Tactician and teamwork feats. However, it again depends on play style, group composition, etc.
If you are going for Medium Armor on your mount you may want to consider the Charger animal companion archetype. Note: This will require some adjudication with your GM because as written the Charger archetype does not work for Cavaliers even though it is designed for them.
- Gauss
If I can grab some horseshoes of speed I think I'll be alright with medium barding. I know the GM will be cool about that. A boar has hooves so its a reasonable item.
And I do like the emissary archtype, but there is a pounce barb in the group so I might stick with basic cavalier. The banner tactician abilities will be pretty cool synergy there.
A mount has to make its own maneuver checks. A mount takes its own actions. If you have Improved Overrun, use it when you're on foot. The mount needs the feat itself in order to perform the feat. This is better anyway--it frees you up for other feats, while a few of the feats you plan to use while mounted can be covered by its slots rather than yours. The rules are mostly clear in the Mounted Combat section in the Combat chapter. The main murkiness lies in the wording of the feats you mention, which don't do a good job of reinforcing the Mounted Combat rules verbiage. The text in both the Ride and Handle Animal skills also helps. In the forum, I think the most complete explanations of Mounted Combat are in those threads discussing "Vital Strike and Mounted Charge." Check those out.
I don't think you provoke AoO for your mount's movement. I'd like to hear why people think so. It'd be like my backpack provoking when I move. Or the frog riding on my head.
thebigragu, if that were true then you could not use the feat Trample.
Benefit: When you attempt to overrun an opponent while mounted, your target may not choose to avoid you. Your mount may make one hoof attack against any target you knock down, gaining the standard +4 bonus on attack rolls against prone targets.
If the mount is the one that has to perform the Overrun then you never qualify for Trample because you did not overrun someone while mounted.
Yes, you can use Improved Overrun while mounted. Yes, you use your CMB and not your mounts (if you are the one with the feat).
- Gauss
Gauss, the wording you bolded, which could suggest that it's the rider making the check, is the same type of wording that makes people mistakenly believe that the rider charges when the mount does. The devs have emphatically corrected that misconception in the infamous rage-pounce thread. Applying the same correction, "when riding a mount performing the overrun maneuver," would be the correct reading. Trample is interesting because it is specifically a rider feat, and it does complicate the argument. If your reading has dev backing, then I'll naturally stand corrected.
Gauss, the wording you bolded, which could suggest that it's the rider making the check, is the same type of wording that makes people mistakenly believe that the rider charges when the mount does. The devs have emphatically corrected that misconception in the infamous rage-pounce thread. Applying the same correction, "when riding a mount performing the overrun maneuver," would be the correct reading. Trample is interesting because it is specifically a rider feat, and it does complicate the argument. If your reading has dev backing, then I'll naturally stand corrected.
This. Trample just isn't written consistently with the designers' stated intent on how a mounted charge works.
Many elements of how mounted charging works are not written consistently with the designers' stated intent of how it works.
As it stands, right now there are a couple of Mounted combat feats and abilities that are *technically* unusable if the Rider is not performing a charge and thus would require house ruling if you follow the Dev's comments.
Until such a time when they decide to rewrite the mounted combat wording and feats there will always be a discrepancy.
Personally, I think they could have solved the Rage-lance-pounce issue without ever opening up mounted charges to standard action combinations.
- Gauss
Yes, but devs have clarified in the forums many times. The idea that one can substitute their character's CMB for their mount's during the mount's action is not supported anywhere. It's a work-around people seem to embrace on the assumption that the wording of some feats trump the Mounted Combat rules in CRB where the texts seem as if they might disagree. They don't. The devs have confirmed this many times and offered clarifications. It seems like many are immediately thrown by the idea that the mount and rider are separate creatures with a specific kind of action economy when they act in concert (I.e., while mounted). These detractors tend to favor that the mount and rider should act as a unit, like the mounted character is essentially wearing a suit of bonuses that we should call "mounted." There are already many threads available that lay this out quite well. I'll post links from my PC later.
How do you figure Overrun is in place of the mount's action?
Even based on the Devs posts you are referencing you have the following:
Mount performs a charge action (not an overrun)
Rider burns a standard action to perform an overrun.
So, as you can see, action economy has nothing to do with it.
Now, if you want to find rules that prevent the rider from overrun against a target while mounted then please do. But I can find no such rule and there seem to be feats and abilities which are based on the rider performing an overrun.
- Gauss
Well, it would be one thing if Imp. Overrun weren't a prerequisite for Trample. It seems pretty clear that the rider is the one performing the maneuver.
In the case of Overrun, the thing that actually makes the most sense is that either the rider or the mount makes the overrun. Same with Charge Through.
If the rider uses charge through to overrun a target that is in the way, then the mount is not impeded and vice versa, only one check is needed, and it should be possible to have either party use the feat because they are moving as one unit across the battlefield. For this one thing, movement, they are treated as a single creature, so if the rider uses overrun and can therefore "move through" the creature, then so can the mount.
You could argue that the rider doesn't count as "moving into the opponents square" but there is no basis for this as both mount and rider ARE moving using the mount's speed. For all effects that concern movement, for example, the rider counts as moving.
Furthermore, this doesn't change the action economy at all. This is still a charge-through overrun like any other.
Now the other side of this is that if your mount, for example, has imp. overrun, and you charge, your mount can't overrun a target and then carry you to a different target to attack. You both have to charge the same thing. Charge through makes this work though.
So, the mount, which is in the middle of its move action, uses it's body to Overrun. But it's not the mount's action, or does not have to be, and in fact would not count against the mount's action economy I guess, because the rider lent the mount his expertise with running things over right then? The first sentence of Overrun states that you perform the maneuver as part of your move action. But the Mounted Combat rules clearly state that the mount uses its move action, not the rider's. Since the rider is not performing a move action, he cannot Overrun. Straight up RAW.
Trample requires Mounted Combat feat and Ride:1. Where do you get this Improved Overrun prerequisite from?
The rider does not charge. The mount charges. Charge Through is usable by whomever is charging. It's pretty clear.
For all effects that concern movement, for example, the rider counts as moving.
If that is actually a rule, then I missed something huge. Source?
Actually, I would say that the rider counts as moving. That's correct, and it applies to aoo's and charging. However, it is the mount's move action. That's an important distinction.
thebigragu, there is really no clear RAW when it comes to the mounted combat rules. They were messed up before the Devs declared that riders are not charging and now they are even more messed up because the Devs declared that without clearing up any of the collateral elements.
Because of that saying 'straight up RAW' doesn't work in this case (I wish it did).
Here is what "straight up RAW" gives us:
Ride-by-Attack +charge rules: cannot be used because you cannot charge directly at a target and still somehow continue the line. But, we gloss over that because otherwise the feat cannot be used.
Ride-by-Attack +Dev "rider is not charging" statement: Cannot be used because the rider is no longer performing the charge action.
When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge).
Spirited Charge +Dev "rider is not charging" statement: Cannot be used AT ALL because the rider is no longer performing the charge action.
Benefit: When mounted and using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a lance).
Trample: cannot be used if we use your interpretation.
Benefit: When you attempt to overrun an opponent while mounted, your target may not choose to avoid you. Your mount may make one hoof attack against any target you knock down, gaining the standard +4 bonus on attack rolls against prone targets.
Unseat: Also written from the perspective of a rider who is charging. Cannot be used if he is not charging.
Benefits: When charging an opponent while mounted and wielding a lance, resolve the attack as normal.
Now, all of this could be fine IF they included words such as: You count as charging without spending an action when your mount charges.
But no such wording exists. At best you get the bonuses and penalties when your mount charges but you are not charging. THAT is RAW based on the Devs comments.
Now, RAI of course is when the mount is charging you are counted as charging for purposes of feats, bonuses, and penalties, and you can perform overruns while mounted. But, feel free to continue to argue a RAW that simply cannot work as written.
Note: Normally I argue RAW pretty heavily and RAI only as a last resort. Well, the mounted combat rules are so bad that I have to argue RAI after showing that RAW cannot work as written.
- Gauss
Edit: To look better
Here we go
I always thought Ride-by-Attack worked like this.
OOOO
OOEO
OOOO
OOOO
OROO
Charges in a straight line
OOOO
OOEO
OROO
OOOO
Continues moving as part of ride-by-attack (In the same straight line)
OROO
OOEO
OOOO
OOOO
Scavion,
That is the way many people choose to interpret it as well. But the charge rules state that you must move directly towards the designated opponent.
Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.
Now, if you draw a line from your starting square to the target's square how are you riding past afterwards without changing direction? You cannot. So, we gloss over the rules in this case in order to make it so that Ride-By Attack works as intended.
My point to thebigragu was that when RAW is unclear or even contradictory you must look to RAI. RAI in the case of Ride-by Attack is how you posted it.
- Gauss
Huh. Guess this is why we don't blow up people's gear when they roll a 1 on a saving throw too.
Most of your examples have been clarified by devs and quoted in threads in which you've heavily participated, and I referenced this defeated pov in an earlier post. You see the contradictions and throw up your hands, unphased by dev clarification. You are trying to gain traction in a new thread with those unfamiliar with those threads. This has been addressed and addressed. You are a hold out. James Jacobs was pointedly exasperated with those taking your position.
thebigragu,
Dev clarification is not RAW unless it is in a FAQ. James Jacobs is not a rules guy as he has stated repeatedly.
Now, while I do appreciate Dev comments they are not Rules as Written. What they are is an indication as to what the Rules as Intended are.
You cannot hold up RAW and say it is RAW when the Devs have contradicted that RAW and then clarified what the RAI is.
My point, the one that you seemed to miss, is that you keep referencing RAW that is unclear at best. The Devs have clarified the RAI of it and you seem to also be using that. But you are failing to apply ALL of the RAI. You are picking and choosing to suit yourself rather than applying the whole thing.
Now, if you can point out ANYWHERE where the Devs have stated that a mounted rider cannot perform an Overrun because he is not moving, please do so.
And btw, please do not try to state what my actions are. At no point did I "throw up my hands". I have used Dev clarification in my debates in this thread. I even posted the results of that clarification.
Also, please do not ascribe motives to me that you are unaware of. I am not trying to "gain traction in a new thread with those unfamiliar with those threads". That is insulting and uncalled for.
At NO point in this thread have I contradicted the Devs RAI on this. I have stated what the RAW is and then what the RAI is based on their comments. That is not me contradicting their clarification so please do not accuse me of that since it is also insulting. I have been very careful regarding my posts on the RAW vs the RAI.
Now, if I missed a Dev comment that states a Rider cannot perform an Overrun, point it out. If that is the case then Trample is unworkable. Otherwise, your main point, that a Rider cannot perform an Overrun, is incorrect.
- Gauss
P.S. In case you missed it. My post regarding the RAW of various feats and abilities being unworkable due to Dev posts based on RAI was simply to demonstrate that following RAW when RAW is contradictory or incorrect is clearly not helpful. You are arguing that you are following RAW even though the RAI is clearly that Mounted Riders are allowed to use Overrun.
If you are going to follow RAW without RAI then you cannot also follow the Devs RAI comments because they contradict RAW. Pick one, either RAW or RAI for mounted combat. You cannot have both.
I'll take RAI.
This is a roleplaying game, not a contest.
You're right, Gauss. You have been a gentleman, and I indeed accused and criticized you for having "motives." Mia culpa. That said, I still think you're dead wrong. RAI that riders are intended to use Overrun? Wow, no. I could be biased by the fact that the basic tenets offered in the opening sentences of the CRB sections, which I've already referenced, contradict that interpretation. I could be also biased by the fact that devs (plural) have supported this. Maybe I missed dev RAI that bolsters your argument? RAW can be unclear until given clarity by devs, certainly here. Do you believe the dev support so far on this issue kind of goes both ways, or does it tend to support your view, or does it tend to support mine? How is Trample unworkable considering that the rider does not need Improved Overrun to do it? What part is unworkable?
RAW and RAI. You can have both. CRB is the touchstone here, and poorly worded feats should be interpreted through the lens of CRB.
Really though, Ssalarn is much better at this that I am.
When doing mouned combat the mount never needs any of tbe feats. First, it is never making any decisions. Second, in theory tge vast majority of mounted combatants do not have animal compaions. Requiring the mount to have the feats would mean in a core only game only druids or paladins could ever do mounted combat.
thebigragu,
Apology accepted.
I am not saying that the Devs have supported a rider using Overrun. I am saying that unless the Devs say that Riders are not allowed to use Overrun then the rules that indicate that Riders CAN use overrun prevail.
What we have:
1) There is nothing that states a Rider cannot use Overrun.
2) There is nothing that states a Rider can use Overrun.
3) There are feats and abilities that specifically state that a Rider is the one using Overrun. Trample is one example, Ride Them Down is another. Based on this, it is clearly intended for Riders to use Overrun.
Ride Them Down (Ex): At 15th level, can spur his mount on while readying an attack. If a roughrider’s mount takes a single move, the roughrider can make a full attack, taking his attacks at any point during his mount’s movement. If he has the Trample feat, he may substitute an overrun combat maneuver for each of his attacks. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity against the roughrider but not his mount. This ability replaces armor training 4.
4) While not exactly the same, there is also Vehicular Overrun. In some ways, the mount is acting like a vehicle (being directed by the Rider). This is an example of the 'rider' (driver) not moving independently of the creature (vehicle) he is riding on and yet still making an overrun check.
Vehicular Overrun: Any time any part of a vehicle (including any creatures used as propulsion) enters the space of a creature or vehicle smaller than it, the driver must make a vehicular overrun combat maneuver against the creature or vehicle. This may require the driver to make vehicular overrun checks against the same creature numerous times as new parts of the vehicle enter its square.
5) I cannot find anything the Devs have stated that states the Rider cannot make Overrun checks. Can you?
6) What we have found is where the Devs are stating the Mount is charging, not the Rider. Well, that does not change that the rider can make a standard action to perform an Overrun maneuver. The movement is provided by the mount.
7) Finally, the text on Overrun never requires the Rider to spend a Move action. Not once does it state that. It states that during the Rider's move he can perform an Overrun. Well, the Rider (compliments of the mount) is moving.
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square.
Now, since the Devs have stated that the mount is charging FOR the rider, don't you think that the mount is also moving for the rider?
- Gauss
Edit: I found a reference where Sean K Reynolds specifically stated a mounted character should use Overrun and his mount perform a hoof attack via Trample.
Hmm, unless I'm forgetting something, I don't think you can overrun and make an attack in the same round. Overrun is a standard action taken during your move or as part of a charge. That's why I suggested Trample, which lets you overrun and your mount can make a hoof attack.
You also have the option of having your mount Overrun the target.Y-----E----- (Using Sean's system)
So you have Ride-by Attack and want to charge past your enemy and he's right in front of you. You just charge right at him, making your attack when he's in reach, and then you run him over. If you have trample, your horse can make an attack if the maneuver succeeds.
@thebigragu
Okay, so after looking up posts and pouring over the CRB, here is what I get. There is a sort of "unspoken" action known as a mounted charge. When your mount charges, you move along with it and take penalties and bonuses just as if you were charging but you are not taking the charge action, your mount is.
As the rider, you are not spending a full round action to do this, in fact you aren't spending any. You can't make a full attack (since the mount moved more than 5ft) but you still have all your actions. So, you can take a standard action to attack at the end of the charge (you can't do it on the way because that would interrupt the movement of the mount) and on this attack you would get lance damage. You also still have a move action available to you.
Am I good so far?
On to part 2:
The concern I have is this. Take spirited charge. Say I am using a greatsword and my mount has imp overrun, charge through and greater overrun. As the rider I have trample, mounted skirmisher and spirited charge. The mount charges through opponent A knocking them prone. This provokes an AoO from both the mount and me. The mount also gets an attack from trample. I already have all the charge bonuses and I am making an attack during a mounted charge. Does my AoO benefit from spirited charge?
Now I am at the end of the charge, my mount only moved 30ft. I can full attack with mounted skirmisher, do all of these attacks benefit from spirited charge? If not why?
On a separate note, this would mean that I could vital strike at the end of this charge and still get bonuses from a lance and spirited charge yes?
Or I could use cleave feats? And get multiplied damage on all of my cleave attacks?
Lord_Malkov,
The mount does not get a Trample attack because the Rider did not perform an Overrun attack.
Either:
A) The Mount performs an Overrun and leaves the Rider free to act.
B) The Rider performs an Overrun and the mount gets to Trample.
Spirited Charge and charge bonuses: No, your attacks do not benefit from either your Charge bonuses nor do they benefit from Spirited Charge. You are not making your Charge Attack until the end of the charge. Any attacks before that are just attacks.
If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge.
Mounted Skirmisher: Only the first attack counts for Charge bonuses. This was resolved in this FAQ.
Lance: If I have the pounce ability and I charge with a lance, do my iterative lance attacks get the lance's extra damage multiplier from charging?
No, for two reasons.One, because a lance only deals extra damage when you’re riding a charging mount—not when you are charging.
Two, even if you have an unusual combination of rules that allows you to ignore the above limitation, it doesn’t makes sense that those iterative attacks gain the damage bonus. To make that second attack, you have to pull the lance back and stab forward again, and that stab doesn’t have the benefit of the charge’s momentum. (The Core Rulebook doesn’t state that you only get the damage multiplier on the first attack with a lance because when the Core Rulebook was published, there was no way for a PC to charge and get multiple attacks with a weapon in the same round, so that combination didn’t need to be addressed.)
Vital Strike: Based on the Devs comments (no FAQ or rules yet), yes if you make a single attack.
Cleave: No because it violates the "Single Attack" clause of the mounted combat rules.
- Gauss
|
@mojorat
I would agree with your line of about the mounts not having the feats else everybody else would not be able to do those things... but there's a gap in that.
Real world mounts never do have those things. I don't ever see a mount, no matter how good the rider is, perform an overrun and get a free attack of opportunity when it succeeds in knocking down it's opponent. There might be the accidental side effect, but it's more of some random chance thing. This applies to not provoking when performing an overrun. What real world mount doesn't do that?
Non-scaling mounts, or mounts that you buy, typically don't get those feats, your right (Though I would say that some GM's I've rolled with made raising a wild animal be able to choose different feats, although the process was long and tedious).
Leadership may allow you to get what you want in a mount without a class feature. Certain purchasable mounts go beyond in strength and combat than the mount class feature of the cavalier (check out the mastodon, available for just 2k gold, and is viable to later games, or any of the purchasable flying mounts...)
The awaken spell allows your mount to learn another feat.
My previous GM would allow us to raise a wild animal and determine it's feats if it was awakened. A mastodon would then rival an animal companion for the druid, even at level 20.
My point is, there are alternative options, though not as attractive as just having the class feature. But allowing people with the mount (Or animal companion) class feature to do things with their mount that others can't with their purchased mount isn't unfair.
Okay so then the only point of contention is "am I charging and able to use charge through while making a mounted charge?"
And I think RAI here is yes, so that is what I am going to go with. I think my GM will see it the same way since there is really no definitive answer and its a reasonable houserule either way.
@mojorat
I would agree with your line of about the mounts not having the feats else everybody else would not be able to do those things... but there's a gap in that.
...)
The awaken spell allows your mount to learn another feat.
My previous GM would allow us to raise a wild animal and determine it's feats if it was awakened. A mastodon would then rival an animal companion for the druid, even at level 20.
My point is, there are alternative options, though not as attractive as just having the class feature. But allowing people with the mount (Or animal companion) class feature to do things with their mount that others can't with their purchased mount isn't unfair.
Right except i think people overly coplicate things, allowing other types of mounts and requiring them are two different things. I used the core book as an example because the mounted combat rules are there and there were so few means to get tge super mount.
Basically can i make a lvl 10 fighter who does the mounted thing reies on mounted combat to keep his moubt alive and still do the fancy mounted stuff? Yes because the game does not require me to be riding mr. Ed.
Lord Malkov: I do believe you could use Trample in that instance. It just depends how you interpret mounted overrun rules. Gauss and I have different positions. You're making the attack from a charging mount, which is what is needed according to the wording. I see nothing indicating that the bonus only applies to the attack taken at the end of a charge. With Ride-by-Attack, for example, the attack isn't at the end of that charge either, because the mount may keep charging. That said, I wouldn't bother with Trample if the mount has Overrun and Greater Overrun. Trample makes more sense to me when riding a mount without those feats.
Gauss, I'm not ignoring your post, just waiting until I can give a substantive response. Last night's posts were all from my IPad while knocking back a few at the pub.
thebigragu,
The mount cannot "keep charging". A charge is performed by the mount against a specific target. When you a riding a mount that is charging a specific target you may, at the end of that charge, perform a charge attack.
Ride-By Attack allows you to continue moving after the charge attack has been performed. It does not change anything else.
Normal: You must stop when you reach the end of the charge and make the charge attack.
Ride-By ATtack: You continue moving after you reached the end of the charge and make the charge attack.
The mount is not continuing to charge. It is continuing to move.
I have quoted the text that states the bonus only applies to the attack taken at the end of the charge. It is quite specific.
If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge.
And here is Ride-By Attack:
When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge). Your total movement for the round can’t exceed double your mounted speed.
- Gauss
@Gauss and thebigragu:
Actually this has all been pretty helpful from both ends. The mounted combat rules get like 5 lines in the combat chapter and then the rest is just inference from reading feats and class features.
I am pretty solid now knowing that I can only make one attack while my mount is charging, but that I can also take a move action, which is fine.
Mounted Skirmisher+Spirited Charge is a bit weird. There was a FAQ for lances, but not for spirited charge, but I think that the intention behind that FAQ should apply.
I think that an attack made during a mounted charge (E.G. Mount uses greater overrun, falling opponent provokes an attack from the rider) probably should get the "momentum" bonus of spirited charge, but it will be easier to just ignore that altogether and call it one attack per charge period.
As to the charge through/overrun concerns, they are a bit weird. I think that ultimately, I stand on the side the mount having Charge Through/Imp Overrun. In many ways it makes more sense for the mount to have these feats, since the mount is the one charging and the mount is the one using its movement, but then Trample throws a big ol'monkey wrench in there.
If the mount doesn't have charge through, then it can't draw a legal line to its target past an interposing creature in the first place. The rider is using the mount's movement, so anything that effects its movement would be the thing to default to. E.G. if there is a creature three size categories smaller than the mount, the mount and rider can move through that creature. This wouldn't create some wonky case where the mount can move through a space and the rider can't.
Improved Overrun should also prevent any AoOs to the rider if used by the Mount. Otherwise you could never, as a PC, pick up a child and use Improved Overrun to barrel past an enemy and escape danger without getting the child attacked. Similarly, a wizard carrying a familiar would provoke an attack on his familiar just by moving. The mount is the one that is moving, so the mount provokes (or prevents provoking). The rider counts as moving but, just like charging, isn't actually charging.
As for Ride-by attack, You don't necessarily need to move directly at the creature as much as you need to move directly at the closest space where you can attack said creature. Therefore this is totally legal:
XX^
XX|
XX|
XE|
XX|
XX|
XX|
XXM
E=enemy
M=mount
What I find particularly interesting about all of this is that you keep your move action while making a mounted charge. Ostensibly, then, you could make a mounted charge, feint with improved feint and still make an attack.
Vital Strike suddenly becomes more appealing as well, since nothing would say that you can't use it. These feats start to look pretty good.
So medium cavalier with Vital Strike, Spirited Charge, An Impact Lance, and Improved Vital Strike, at level 11.
You are hitting a mounted charge attack for 10d6 + 4.5xStrength + 4.5xPower Attack
With order of the sword, say your mount has Str 20, and say the rider has str 22. The lance, we can call a +2 impact lance
That is 10d6 + 27 + 27 + 15 (Mount) + 6 (enhancement)
Average charge of 110, (143 if it is his challenge target)
I suppose Vital strike is only really adding 4d6 damage in this scenario, but still... 14 damage is pretty good for two feats.
thenobledrake,
The Devs have stated that although the rider has the same bonuses and penalties as if he were charging he is not actually charging, the mount is. As a result, the logic is that because the rider is not charging the rider can vital strike in a mounted charge.
- Gauss