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At least certin professions in my opinion should have prerequisities instead of just being avialable because you have skill points.
Profession [barrister] should have knowledge law at least.
Profession [accountant] should have knowledge math.
Profession [banker] should aslo have knowledge math
etc....
At least then you wont get stuff like this...
A human commoner with a 3 Intelligence and a 10 Wisdom can earn a very good living (such as Profession [Barrister] or Profession [Accountant] or Profession [Farmer] or Profession [Banker], speak two languages, and have an extra skill handy for poops and giggles, maybe meaning he has training in two professions (maybe he was also a Sailor or a chef at some point).
There are PCs who take ranks in Profession?
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Better yet, why don't knowledge skills have prereqs? You don't just have knowledge: Math. You need to do it in a scale. You need knowledge: Addition and Knowledge: Subtraction. Eventually you'll reach Knowledge: Algebra and eventually you'll graduate to Finite and Statistics. You need at least 5 ranks in statistics and to have passed a test witnessed by someone at least twice your HD to become certified to work in any profession that requires math as a prerequisite.
Its like a PrC, but for skill checks.
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More seriously, skill systems in RPGs generally don't do a good job representing knowledge. Which is okay! Unless you're playing Dungeons & Academics, it's probably not a big enough part of the game to warrant the detail to make it accurately reflect how knowledge is learned, builds upon prior knowledge, etc. It's much easier to just have Knowledge (Arcane) be one thing and not break it up into multiple skills.
Better yet, why don't knowledge skills have prereqs? You don't just have knowledge: Math. You need to do it in a scale. You need knowledge: Addition and Knowledge: Subtraction. Eventually you'll reach Knowledge: Algebra and eventually you'll graduate to Finite and Statistics. You need at least 5 ranks in statistics and to have passed a test witnessed by someone at least twice your HD to become certified to work in any profession that requires math as a prerequisite.
Its like a PrC, but for skill checks.
If it takes 5 levels to get enough Knowledge (Maths) just to be an accountant, does that mean professional mathematicians are epic level?
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If it takes 5 levels to get enough Knowledge (Maths) just to be an accountant, does that mean professional mathematicians are epic level?
Yes, your math professor was a real dungeons and academics badass. It explains old barkeeps pretty well doesn't it?
...am I the only one wondering why this hypothetical human commoner has a 3 intelligence in the first place?
He isn't using his brains for his profession. Just wisdom for the checks. Besides, with only 2 skill points per level from his commoner levels, the guy is getting a steal with a dump like that. What's he gonna use it on? He's just a lawyer, he doesn't need intelligence. Heck, if he's human in PF and he can have 3 skill points per level with his 3 intelligence.
I'm sure he makes it up elsewhere... Where it counts! That's right, Charisma. Its not about being smart, its about looking smart. Or at least convincing everyone around you your smart.
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I was being more serious, Mr Sin.
I mean, really, who goes out of their way to give a commoner stats (instead of just straight 10s modified for race) and intentionally chooses stats that they think don't make sense?
...and when you make the choice to have a commoner have a 3 Intelligence, why would you then also choose to make him anything other than the village idiot?
Because the person doesnt think a low stat should be a disadvantage.
...am I the only one wondering why this hypothetical human commoner has a 3 intelligence in the first place?The OP isn't clear about this, but the last paragraph is a quote from this post in a thread about what low mental scores imply about a character. Here's some more context to the quote:
Having a low Int score can mean that you don't excel at certain things while excelling at others, just as some people have a difficult time with mathematics but are quite gifted in the arts.
A human commoner with a 3 Intelligence (this happens frequently enough with the 3d6 die rolling method common to NPCs) and a 10 Wisdom can earn a very good living (such as Profession [Barrister] or Profession [Accountant] or Profession [Farmer] or Profession [Banker], speak two languages, and have an extra skill handy for poops and giggles, maybe meaning he has training in two professions (maybe he was also a Sailor or a chef at some point).
Most people aren't going to call him stupid, because people don't get to see his character sheet. They have to interact with him and decide if he's stupid. He probably makes more money than they do (24 gp / month in fact). He doesn't know much about the world though. He can only answer easy (DC 5) questions by taking 10.
They are going to look on and see a man who is arguably under educated in general knowledge and/or appraisals, but who has a good head on his shoulders and very practical and valuable skills, and many may be impressed that he speaks a second language fluently.
Jacob Saltband appears to not like the idea of such a character, so created this thread to ask about house rules that prevent their existence. Of course, requiring ranks in knowledge skills for certain professions doesn't really avoid this. The required number of ranks would have to be relatively low. Otherwise, you end up in a situation where all accountants are at least level 5. Say you have to have at least 1 rank of Knowledge (Law) before picking up any ranks of Profession (Barrister). Then the hypothetical 3 Int 10 Wis commoner picks up Knowledge (Law), Linguistics, and Profession (Chef) at 1st level and Profession (Barrister) and two other skills at 2nd level. Their bonus on Knowledge (Law) checks is -3 instead of -4.
I don't think it's infeasible for a low Int character to be a lawyer or banker. As far as math goes, the requirements are minimal, mostly just arithmetic. In the real world, tools have existed for a long time to help with this. The abacus is the obvious thing to point out, but it's not the only one. Pascal invented a mechanical adder in 1642. Liebniz made some improvements centuries later. In a world with magic, it's not inconceivable that magical adders would exist. For Profession (Barrister), there's more to being a successful lawyer than pure knowledge of the law. At the very worst, our hypothetical commoner could have an aide with lots of ranks in Knowledge (Law).
So... Are people really that angry about a hypothetical commoner with 3 intelligence?
So... Are people really that angry about a hypothetical commoner with 3 intelligence?Not particularly, more challenging its relevance as a point of arguing for increased game complexity.
Okay, pretend he has 8. Same number of skill points now, but at least he looks smarter?
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I guess my problem is that attributes as a whole number means something or at least did and I believe sould still.
Skill such as Architect, Barrister, Clerk, Engineer, Librarian, Merchant, and Scribe should be governed by Int.
Skills such as Miner, Porter, and Woodcutter should be governed by Str.
Etc...
Should a 10 Wis be able to negate a 6 Str for a Porter?
A Porter is someone who carries things (ususally on thier bakcs)for others right?
Profession seems to over look the whole array of attributes in favor of just one.
*shrug*
Profession is a vast oversimplification. This usually isn't a big deal, since very few PCs put any ranks into a Profession skill and even fewer put more than one or two ranks in. If as DM, you don't think 6 Str porters make sense, then don't make any NPCs with 6 Str and ranks in Profession (Porter). Adding rules to govern prerequisites for the Profession skills is adding complexity for almost no gain.