GM seeking help about a PC for RotR

[Kenlin]

Hello. I have a bit of a problem on my hands about a PC in my upcoming game. No, the player in question is not the issue, but rather the character he wants to play. He wants to play a Sylph Rogue - which I'm fine with him playing a sylph. The issue I find myself in is some feats he wants to take. First off, I allowed the use of the Core and APG books, with my approval on things from the UM, UC, and ARG books. He wants to take the following two feats from the ARG that has me worried.

Airy Step:

+2 on saves vs. air or electricity descriptors and effects that deal electricity damage. Also ignore the first 30 feet of a fall when figuring out fall damage.

Wings of Air:

Prerequisite: Airy Step and 9th level. Bonuses on the saves goes to +4. Also gain supernatural fly speed equal to your base speed (good maneuverability). Only fly while in light or no armor.

The first feat I don't take any issue on. In fact, the lessen fall damage is not likely to be abused from what I have read. It's the second feat, Wings of Air, that I am worried about. The permanent fly speed is ridiculously too good in my eyes, and I fear that just having could ruin many challenges the campaign may throw the groups way just by having one character having permanent flight. I've only read to the middle of the 3rd chapter in the anniversary book, so I have no idea what the latter half of the campaign will have in store.

The player says that he is worried about being able to fly with rest of the party. I explained that won't be an issue, because the spells that grant fly speeds are only one person for a limited time (also, I can't think of a spell that gives a party of 6 players fly speeds for any considerable time). I also told him that permanent flight via magical items are very expensive and hard to craft - and for good reason too. My honest opinion is that he is trying to min/max the hell out of his character by wanting this feat - something I've notice with other games our group runs.

I would like some of your opinions about this issue. My gut tells me the answer is no on the second feat. However, one of my players (not the one in question) asked that I seek out advice here first before I make my final decision. I've already looked for and answer before hand, but didn't not find any thread in this sub-forum.

EDIT
I saw a thread about an all flying party a mere minute after posting this. The issue is not flying itself, but rather permanent flight for two feats. I have no issue if the party earns flight through magical means, be it spells or items. Just thought to make that clearer for you.

[Poldaran]

Kenlin wrote:

I saw a thread about an all flying party a mere minute after posting this. The issue is not flying itself, but rather permanent flight for two feats. I have no issue if the party earns flight through magical means, be it spells or items. Just thought to make that clearer for you.

Personally, I don't see a real problem with it. Since a broom of flying costs 17k and overland flight is available at level 9, both seem to put the power level of flight at around level 9, which is the level of the feat.

If given the option to make a magic item that gave me two feats at level 9 for 17k, I probably would for most characters. Which I know ignores the fact that the feats give other bonuses as well, so even if we called it 25k for the two feat item, I'd still probably do it.

In the last campaign I ran, everyone had some form of flight by level 10. Since it was a custom campaign, I was able to adjust for it easily enough. Even with this being an AP, shouldn't be too hard to throw in some folks with ranged attacks here and there if you want to keep the rogue from doing nothing but attacking from the sky. I think the problem arises when the entire party is constantly flying. One or two of their number doing it just sound like juicy targets for an archer.

[Tinalles]

Kenlin wrote:

I saw a thread about an all flying party a mere minute after posting this. The issue is not flying itself, but rather permanent flight for two feats. I have no issue if the party earns flight through magical means, be it spells or items. Just thought to make that clearer for you.

I don't understand why permanent flight is an issue for you, but magical flight isn't. What is it that having "always on" flight will allow him to do that he couldn't already do with some aid from a spell or an item? I suppose it might save the party wizard a spell slot and an action to cast Fly. But that's hardly game-breaking.

Also note that wizards with the Air school get (essentially) permanent flight at level 10 at a cost of zero feats. And theirs is faster, to boot.

[Mudfoot]

The flying is good, but that's it. Otherwise the character is pretty weak (it's a rogue with no spare feats). I can see it might make a reasonably effective mobile archer and scout, but it's very vulnerable and poor in melee. Consider this:

1) Sylph has a Con penalty. Rogues are MAD already, so you're looking at about 9 hp at 1st level.
2) Fly is not a class skill for rogues. One can debate whether the feat provides that; I'd say not because it's supernatural not natural. So you're looking at +5 or +8 skill, which isn't great.
3) Flight is not inherently silent. Nowhere does it suggest that it is.
4) Stealth isn't likely to be much good when you're flying, unless it's dark. So he'll be spotted and attacked. He does have 60' darkvision so can get stealth, but most monsters have it too.

There are places where it'll be very useful, essentially anywhere outside. But indoors it's usually a waste of 2 feats.

[HangarFlying]

Mudfoot wrote:

3) Flight is not inherently silent. Nowhere does it suggest that it is.

Most forms of propulsion involve expelling pressurized gasses. I guess you could cast silence on him, but then he'd be silent but deadly.

[James B. Cline]

This brings to mind a song... "Don't you know you never split the party...."

Anyways, don't worry flight is not something you should worry about. There's tons of ways to get it, and if the rest of the party doesn't get it, well traveling alone is not healthy. By level 9 there are plenty of random air creatures that person will have to contend with, but I wouldn't make it a total pain. Being in the air gives no cover, no cover, no stealth.

Winds and fly not being a class skill will keep them ... in check. lol

[Malag]

It's pretty sweet feat, but as everyone else said, not that good to guarantee being abused. In fact, a flying rogue scouting around or moving in combat is juicy target for archers and flying predators. His speed isn't that fast to outfly regular flying creatures.