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It seems like in many PFS scenarios, at least the BBEG if not many of the opponents are spellcasters.
Hold person on the rogue, confusion on the martials, touch of idiocy on the casters, self buffing until a nearly unstoppable melee machine, etc...
From the last couple of times I played, it seems like it would have been very worth while to have one of the 4-6 pc's devoted to stopping the BBEG's primary offense or dispelling his buffs.
The magus shocking grasp doesn't even spark. The wizard's fireball burns no one. The domination doesn't. Etc... Then the whole rest of the group can whomp on the BBEG and his mooks while relatively safe.
I understand, the BBEG is not always a caster (or at least not just a caster). So I would have to have other useful spells for those situations.
No I don't have a build yet. If people think the concept is viable, then I will start working on a build.
Have you seen anyone try it? Did it work or was it a flop?
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"I ready to attack if he starts casting."
Yeah, I've seen an archer do that before. If he had clear line of sight and the AC wasn't impossibly high it seemed to work pretty well.
I was considering doing the same kind of thing except a primary caster counter spelling. That way he won't have cover from mooks in the way as long as I have line of effect and the AC will be irrelevant.
I'm just not sure if it will work as well in practice as it seems like it should in my head.
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Held action to interrupt with a magic missile is a lot more reliable, effective, costs less to get into, works on opponents other than casters, and is in every way better than a dispel magic. (and yes you can use another spell if you run into the rare npc with shield up)
At 5th level with magic missile you do an average, unoptimized, of 10.5 hit points. That gives him a concentration check (combat casting doesn't help here) of 20-21 + spell level. For an 8th level BBEG, that's a tough check. At 9th level, you do an average of 17.5 hit points, for a concentration check of 27-28 + spell level.
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I am tempted to dip my summoner into a level of the Riftwarden PrC to get Countersummons due to being rather tired of BBEGs who summon nasties. I'm terrible enough at character construction that I doubt anyone will notice just how horribly I've gimped her.
Also, if you're going for metamagic on Magic Missile to stop casters, why not Dazing?
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If you do get a bit more specialized Toppling Magic Missiles will also force a second concentration check for violent movement (if the trip check succeeds). Its not a super hard DC but gives an extra opportunity to fail.
And makes them easier to surround. :)
But, aren't Magic Missiles separate? (Like several arrows would be.)
So it's many concentration checks, each of them fairly easy.
Agree that Dispel is pretty iffy, but a focused abjurer, especially one with Improved Counterspell and Counterspell Mastery, should do well.
BBEGs will often cast too high to counter well, but there are other casters often, and other tricks to play with.
Such as:
-Precast Silence on stone or arrow before opening important door. (And it helps you approach stealthily too.)
-Have Darkness (precast & covered), fog, etc. ready to break caster's line of sight.
-Have Wall spells (et al) ready to break caster's line of effect.
This can be done with doors too. Had an ally's Fireball mess up my own party vs. a 'close door if casting starts'.
-Tanglefoot bags at lower levels.
-Summon a grappling creature right next to them.
-Wait. Fought a horde of summoned creatures, advised stepping back and waiting until they disappeared, nearly lost 2/3 of party because others fought on.
So lots of ways to counter, without specializing.
If you do specialize, have other ways to contribute.
And, being as this is Year of the Demon, abjuration certainly has its place. :)
Cheers, JMK
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If you do get a bit more specialized Toppling Magic Missiles will also force a second concentration check for violent movement (if the trip check succeeds). Its not a super hard DC but gives an extra opportunity to fail.And makes them easier to surround. :)
But, aren't Magic Missiles separate? (Like several arrows would be.)
So it's many concentration checks, each of them fairly easy.
In my experience most GMs don't run it that way. Its fairly iffy since all the missiles land simultaneously. Though to only make one roll for damage is definitely the most common result I see at the table. It is after all faster.
As an evoker I use magic missile to interrupt spellcasting quite a lot.
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I've had some success doing counterspelling with my character Conner Tist. He's a sorcerer into Pathfinder Savant and I've found the "Ready to Counter with Dispel Magic" has been a great tactic against enemy casters.
My advice is to not put all your eggs in one basket in case you don't face a caster BBEG; Conner for instance focused heavily on Necromancy in his early levels and keeps some odd wands and scrolls in case his learned spells are not a viable solution to a problem.
Also consider the pros and and cons of getting a Headband of Counterspellling versus a stat-boosting one.
Finally, you are most likely still going to have to eat the first spell cast by the enemy just because they either get the drop on you or you may not know they're a caster... plus it keeps the GM from being too angry that you've lock-downed the BBEG wizard ^_~
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Even a melee character can counterspell. Ready to 5-ft step and attack if they cast a spell. They 5-ft away from you. You don't follow. They start to cast, generally without doing it defensively. Your ready goes off, you smack them in the face, they likely lose their spell.
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Even a melee character can counterspell. Ready to 5-ft step and attack if they cast a spell. They 5-ft away from you. You don't follow. They start to cast, generally without doing it defensively. Your ready goes off, you smack them in the face, they likely lose their spell.
It's worth noting that this only works if you did not have to move up to the caster before readying, because you can only include a 5' step in your ready if you move no distance on your turn:
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.
So you'd have to start your turn adjacent to the caster.
-Matt
Venture-Captain, Germany—Hamburg
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Even a melee character can counterspell. Ready to 5-ft step and attack if they cast a spell. They 5-ft away from you. You don't follow. They start to cast, generally without doing it defensively. Your ready goes off, you smack them in the face, they likely lose their spell.It's worth noting that this only works if you did not have to move up to the caster before readying, because you can only include a 5' step in your ready if you move no distance on your turn:
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.So you'd have to start your turn adjacent to the caster.
-Matt
I'd just work with the "Step Up" feat. That way you can take a move action to move next to the enemy caster and ready to attack when he starts casting.
If he then takes a 5 ft. step away to cast without triggering any readied action, you just use "Step Up" to take a 5 ft. step and stay adjacent to him, staying able to take that readied action.The good thing about this is you can take that 5 ft. step although you already moved that round, because it uses your next round's 5 ft. step.
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I have my caster ready spells if they start casting. Good luck making a 60 DC concentration check from fireball/burning arc damage. I damage and have a much easier chance of succeeding canceling your spell.
For those of you that say what is the BBEG does this to you? Well fine. Both of us sit there while the 3+ other members of my team go kill it.
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Even a melee character can counterspell. Ready to 5-ft step and attack if they cast a spell. They 5-ft away from you. You don't follow. They start to cast, generally without doing it defensively. Your ready goes off, you smack them in the face, they likely lose their spell.It's worth noting that this only works if you did not have to move up to the caster before readying, because you can only include a 5' step in your ready if you move no distance on your turn:
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.So you'd have to start your turn adjacent to the caster.
-Matt
I'd just work with the "Step Up" feat. That way you can take a move action to move next to the enemy caster and ready to attack when he starts casting.
If he then takes a 5 ft. step away to cast without triggering any readied action, you just use "Step Up" to take a 5 ft. step and stay adjacent to him, staying able to take that readied action.
The good thing about this is you can take that 5 ft. step although you already moved that round, because it uses your next round's 5 ft. step.
I have rarely found the casters to be a serious problem once the melee characters get next to them. The problems are usually when there is terrain or mooks in the way. Sometimes he can get as many as 3 nasty spells out before the melee guys can get to him.
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So it looks like at least some people think a counter-spell caster might be worth while.
The three build suggestions are:
... take Spell Specialization and Gifted Adept for Dispel Magic, plus Varisian Tattoo for Abjuration...
... especially one with Improved Counterspell and Counterspell Mastery...
... consider the pros and and cons of getting a Headband of Counterspellling versus a stat-boosting one...
So we have:
spell specialization - dispel magicgifted adept - dispel magic
varisian tattoo - abjuration
improved counterspell
counterspell mastery
eventuall buy a headband of counterspelling
Any other suggestions?
Seems like it should be an abjuration specialist wizard (even though I don't normally like wizards) with maybe conjuration and necromancy as the opposed schools.
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Also, if you really are in a corner, fighting some kind of legendary spellcaster of enormous power, you will want to be a divine spellcaster with an active bead of karma (from the strand of prayer beads). If you can somehow afford it, an orange prism ioun stone will give you another small boost, with an expected value of a little bit more if you slot it in your Wayfinder. All of those and the above options from RDN with give your 11th level divine caster an effective level of either 20 or 18 + 1d4 (depending on if you slot the ioun stone). A foresight diviner can increase this again by 2 for a few rounds a day (I suppose you could just be one if you'd rather be arcane, but you lose the 4 from the bead--however, you gain the ability to roll at the start of your round and decide if you want to use that roll for the counterspell or roll again, which can be very powerful if you know, say, that the enemy is 17th level and you thus need to roll a 10 on the dice to succeed). Counterspell abjurers are actually extremely bad at stopping a BBEG's strong spells, but they are good at dealing with quickened low-level spells a few times per day.
So for the highest bonus (using karma beads) combined with the ability to spontaneously cast dispel magic a whole lot of times, oracle is pretty good. You will have to have 13 Int for Spell Specialization though. Otherwise, diviner wizard is the best if you don't have any items (and you can always use Greater Spell Specialization to spont the dispels, plus wizard has high Int and starts you with one of the prereqs of Spell Specialization).
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Caster level checks can be rough, if they're high level. In that case, ready to dispel if you identify a spell being cast. A a targeted dispell only has to beat the save DC, which tends to be *much* easier. Stack your caster level, focus on having a good spell craft check. A good save DC caps at around 2easily. You can pretty easily beat that. It works well in high level play, especially as a sorcerer, since you can do it all day long.
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I actually have a character I'm making that's an Oracle of Spellscar who is taking the revelation to be better at removing magical effects (only helps with removing them, not counterspelling), along with Gifted Adept, Spell Specialization, and Varisian Tattoo (Abjuration).
I don't plan on him being a counterspeller, but good at removing effects already cast (Oh, he has freedom of movement and we have a grappler? He doesn't have that anymore). If there's not a caster, he will instead focus on defense and buff spells.
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I actually have a character I'm making that's an Oracle of Spellscar who is taking the revelation to be better at removing magical effects (only helps with removing them, not counterspelling), along with Gifted Adept, Spell Specialization, and Varisian Tattoo (Abjuration).
I don't plan on him being a counterspeller, but good at removing effects already cast (Oh, he has freedom of movement and we have a grappler? He doesn't have that anymore). If there's not a caster, he will instead focus on defense and buff spells.
Well the good thing is, if you have an active karma bead, then in a pinch, you can become a fantastic counterspeller if the scenario demands it.
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A a targeted dispell only has to beat the save DC, which tends to be *much* easier.I'm not sure that's how it works. I believe that when it tells you to check against the spell's DC, it's referring to the previously mentioned dispelling DC of 11+CL.
Agreed--it is definitely referring to the 11+CL DC from the previous paragraph. It doesn't say "save DC" in there anywhere, so the relevant DC would be the dispel DC.
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Ok, what I got so far with some rough details.
Improved counter spell – may use a spell of the same school if it is at least 1 spell level higher (probably won’t be possible on the BBEG’s highest level spells)
Preferred spell (dispel magic) – spontaneously cast dispel magic
Spell specialization (dispel magic) – cast at +2 CL (requires spell focu)
Greater spell specialization (dispel magic) – spont cast the special spell (seems the same as preferred spell)
Gifted adept (dispel magic) – gain another +1 caster level
Atheist abjurations – gives a +2 caster level vs divine caster spells or send back and outsider summoned by divine caster
Sorc maestro – if still dispel magic, will give another +1 caster level
Sorc anarchic – if counterspell succeeds enemy caster takes damage
Oracle dual-cursed fortune – would allow me 1 reroll on the caster level check each day (twice at level 11)
Counterspell sub-school (counterspell mastery 6th) – counter as an immediate action instead of readied 1 each day but must use a spell of 1 level higher that target spell (so again, probably not the BBEG highest spells but maybe the quickened lower level ones)
Bard magician spell suppression – seems unlikely to be able to use it long enough to have much effect unless you can get the BBEG to come to you sometime after you have started
Cleric Theologian magic domain – gives +2 caster level on dispelling touch (doesn’t seem worth it)
Headband of counterspelling – gives +5 to spellcraft to ID spell as cast and 1 each day counter as immediate action (but this might only work with the same spell not using dispel magic, I can’t tell for sure)
Prayer bead of karma – gives +4 caster level for 10 minutes (expensive but powerful)
Orange prism ioun stone – gives +1 caster level (not sure what MS meant about +1d4 if in wayfinder, I haven’t found anything like that in the guide so far)
This is what I’ve found so far. Seems like there was an oracle revelation and something for inquisitor with counter spelling bonus, but I can’t find it at the moment. Anything you can think of that I missed?
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Agreed--it is definitely referring to the 11+CL DC from the previous paragraph. It doesn't say "save DC" in there anywhere, so the relevant DC would be the dispel DC.A a targeted dispell only has to beat the save DC, which tends to be *much* easier.I'm not sure that's how it works. I believe that when it tells you to check against the spell's DC, it's referring to the previously mentioned dispelling DC of 11+CL.
Having looked it over, I was wrong. Good to learn I'd been doing it wrong! In that case, just chip the BBEG with magic missile. If it doesn't work, dispel shield, and repeat. If you have a fellow caster with Magic Missile, ready to targeted dispel his shield as they cast magic missile. *really* wrecks casters.
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Having looked it over, I was wrong. Good to learn I'd been doing it wrong! In that case, just chip the BBEG with magic missile. If it doesn't work, dispel shield, and repeat. If you have a fellow caster with Magic Missile, ready to targeted dispel his shield as they cast magic missile. *really* wrecks casters.Agreed--it is definitely referring to the 11+CL DC from the previous paragraph. It doesn't say "save DC" in there anywhere, so the relevant DC would be the dispel DC.A a targeted dispell only has to beat the save DC, which tends to be *much* easier.I'm not sure that's how it works. I believe that when it tells you to check against the spell's DC, it's referring to the previously mentioned dispelling DC of 11+CL.
Eh, that depends on your GM ruling a single concentration check from the spell and not one per blow (which is what I do). Most BBEGs can handle the latter easily at all levels.
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Eh, that depends on your GM ruling a single concentration check from the spell and not one per blow (which is what I do). Most BBEGs can handle the latter easily at all levels.Having looked it over, I was wrong. Good to learn I'd been doing it wrong! In that case, just chip the BBEG with magic missile. If it doesn't work, dispel shield, and repeat. If you have a fellow caster with Magic Missile, ready to targeted dispel his shield as they cast magic missile. *really* wrecks casters.Agreed--it is definitely referring to the 11+CL DC from the previous paragraph. It doesn't say "save DC" in there anywhere, so the relevant DC would be the dispel DC.A a targeted dispell only has to beat the save DC, which tends to be *much* easier.I'm not sure that's how it works. I believe that when it tells you to check against the spell's DC, it's referring to the previously mentioned dispelling DC of 11+CL.
In which case I will pull out my metamagic rod of toppling, and make 5 different CMB checks to trip him.
A different fun method is the spell Telekinetic Charge. Grab your barbarian and fling him at the caster. Barbarian gets a hit as part of the spell, and can make a readied attack as well. Referencing a "fastball special" gets you bonus cool points.
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Eh, that depends on your GM ruling a single concentration check from the spell and not one per blow (which is what I do). Most BBEGs can handle the latter easily at all levels.Having looked it over, I was wrong. Good to learn I'd been doing it wrong! In that case, just chip the BBEG with magic missile. If it doesn't work, dispel shield, and repeat. If you have a fellow caster with Magic Missile, ready to targeted dispel his shield as they cast magic missile. *really* wrecks casters.Agreed--it is definitely referring to the 11+CL DC from the previous paragraph. It doesn't say "save DC" in there anywhere, so the relevant DC would be the dispel DC.A a targeted dispell only has to beat the save DC, which tends to be *much* easier.I'm not sure that's how it works. I believe that when it tells you to check against the spell's DC, it's referring to the previously mentioned dispelling DC of 11+CL.In which case I will pull out my metamagic rod of toppling, and make 5 different CMB checks to trip him.
A different fun method is the spell Telekinetic Charge. Grab your barbarian and fling him at the caster. Barbarian gets a hit as part of the spell, and can make a readied attack as well. Referencing a "fastball special" gets you bonus cool points.
Telekinetic charge is the best damaging evocation out there--it's a favorite of my wizard.
As for toppling, it says
The impact of your force spell is strong enough to knock the target prone. If the target takes damage, fails its saving throw, or is moved by your force spell, make a trip check against the target, using your caster level plus your casting ability score bonus (Wisdom for clerics, Intelligence for wizards, and so on). This does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If the check fails, the target cannot attempt to trip you or the force effect in response.
So topping spell checks once to see if they take damage, fail a save, or are moved and makes a trip attempt if so.