If you let someone think they're getting a free gift, and later try to charge them money for it, they're going to resent it.
By the way, I'm sending you an invoice for all this good advice.
Sometimes people run games without investing a whole lot of time and research into property taxes. You know, because they wanna blow off some steam and have some fun :P
Well that didn't work out too well in this case, unfortunately. His game has exploded around him, basically because he's made a bunch of bad calls off the top of his head. A minute or two on Wikipedia ('deed' and 'property tax') isn't a lot of time.
It's not. And, putting the time, effort, and dedication into polishing your setting is great and all, but sometimes life gets in the way, which is what I'm going to assume has happened here. Well, that or inexperience. In either case, cut the guy some slack and remember that this is a game we're all playing.
Sometimes people run games without investing a whole lot of time and research into property taxes. You know, because they wanna blow off some steam and have some fun :PWell that didn't work out too well in this case, unfortunately. His game has exploded around him, basically because he's made a bunch of bad calls off the top of his head. A minute or two on Wikipedia ('deed' and 'property tax') isn't a lot of time.
Oh please. I make seven worse calls before breakfast and all three of my games are running just fine.
It's not about making the right call always, or even ever. It's about communicating with your players so that they feel like you are being constructive with their characters.
You can be very, very wrong. A lot. Some of the greatest sessions I've been in were with GMs who basically didn't know s*$† about the system. That doesn't actually make you a bad GM if you have the important stuff down.
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I understand them being miffed about the cost of the tower, especially if they didn't know about it before acquiring the tower. I do not however understand quitting a whole campaign over it, if they could just sell the deed for a thousand. You made a bad call, but they seem to be acting childish. Just remember that the game is about having fun, and most people don't find playing "paychecks and taxes" to be fun. I'm sure some do, but I doubt they would choose play D&D or Pathfinder for that kind of "fun".
Assuming pathfinder sticks with 3.5's 50 coins per pound.
9000 gold comes out to approximately 3.5 million US dollars in value.
It's possible to buy castle homes for as low as 1 million dollars (Though admittedly those are some of the cheapest), but we're merely talking about a single tower.
I think if you compare the relative costs of things that exist for the characters in game to similar items IRL, I think it comes to around $900,000 for said 9,000 gold tower. It's pretty reasonable, I would think.
I could be a little off(due to rounding and such), but I think there was a whole thread on it.
If you compare salaries instead: Assume that you take 10 on Profession with Skill Focus and a 14 in a stat. Then one gold a day is an average skilled laborer's daily income. 365 gold a year, then, equates roughly to the 2011 average American salary of $42,050. Each gold piece is equal to roughly... $115.21.
$900,000 is a pretty good ballpark estimate for 9,000 gold. It's about 15% off, so add $135,000 and you have a total of 1,035,000 dollars, right above the minimum threshold for a cheap castle home.
Claiming that $4700 is cheap or expensive seems pretty irrelevant to me, as we do not have any idea what sort of income the players have. There are certainly games where players have many multiples of the standard rate and others games where players who pooled their money could not afford a notable magic item.
Honestly I would not take up the deal, unless there is an obvious way to make money I'd rather save towards the next magic item.
Under the rules for Ultimate Campaign I could buy:
CASTER'S TOWER
Create 88 Goods, 9 Influence, 81 Labor, 11 Magic (4,750 gp)
Rooms 1 Artisan's Workshop, 1 Bath, 1 Bedroom, 1 Cell, 1 Ceremonial Room, 1 Kitchen, 1 Lavatory, 1 Magical Repository, 1 Office, 1 Scriptorium, 1 Scrying Room, 1 Sitting Room, 1 Storage
The home and laboratory for a spellcaster.
AND MAKE MY OWN MAGIC ITEMS, that's major profit there.
Hell I can buy these other things for a fraction of the price.
BLACK MARKET
Create 53 Goods, 6 Influence, 48 Labor (2,200 gp)
Rooms 1 Armory, 1 Cell, 1 Escape Route, 1 False Front, 1 Guard Post, 1 Office, 1 Secret Room, 1 Storage, 1 Vault
A secret shop that buys and sells a variety of shady, dangerous, and illicit wares.
EXOTIC ARTISAN
Create 44 Goods, 1 Influence, 41 Labor (1,730 gp)
Rooms 1 Artisan's Workshop, 1 Bedroom, 1 Kitchen, 1 Lavatory, 1 Sitting Room, 1 Storage, 1 Storefront
The workshop and home for a creator of magic items, a fireworks maker, a glassblower, or the like.
FARM
Create 53 Goods, 1 Influence, 50 Labor (2,090 gp)
Rooms 1 Animal Pen, 1 Bedroom, 1 Farmland, 1 Garden, 1 Kitchen, 1 Lavatory, 1 Sitting Room
A small family farm or ranch.
HERBALIST
Create 52 Goods, 1 Influence, 48 Labor (2,030 gp)
Rooms 1 Artisan's Workshop, 1 Bedroom, 1 Greenhouse, 1 Kitchen, 1 Lavatory, 1 Sitting Room, 1 Storage, 1 Storefront
The workshop and home of a gardener, healer, poisoner, or potion crafter.
And so on....
The numbers in this thread are meaningless.
There's a game in play. The game economy is nonsense. Moreover, the game economy needs to be nonsense.
Calculating the value of GP in our modern economy may be an amusing exercise, but it really offers no insight into what this GM must do for his campaign.
The GM introduced this tower, and the players are unwilling to pay the ongoing price. They have several options, including diplomacy, to settle the matter.
The problem could be avoided if the GM works on his ability to hide his own desires. If you get really good at presenting events as neutral, rather than making things happen because the players are bothering you, you'll get a lot less push back from the players.
In either case, cut the guy some slack and
remember that this is a game we're all playing.
This thread started as an "Am I right or are my players right?" topic. Or rather "Am I wrong or are my players just whiners?"
I think he was wrong. You think they players are whiners. And we're both right.
So yeah, slack? Not so much. The "It's just a game." phrase cuts both ways. Why can't the OP give them the tower without a huge back tax bill? "It's just a game."
The game here is 'gotcha'. Look, you guys found the deed to the tower! That means you own it! Only wait, it'll cost you 4700gp that you don't have! Gotcha! But you can pay even more money if you do it in installments! Gotcha! And you miss a weekly payment and it's +10% more money! Gotcha!
Maybe the OP didn't mean it that way, but that's surely the way his players are perceiving it. I think they're silly walking away from the game over it - I probably would have asked the GM point blank "You don't want us to have the tower, just say so." The GM might actually have reasons. Like "The next three adventures take place 400 miles away."
I guess my point is, it doesn't matter if it's him or the players who was wrong.
They have a present situation, and a good GM ought to always finesse that into the next game. If you stop to assign blame, no good will come of that. If you turn the players complaints into an action item, you give them a chance to get what they wanted if they work for it a bit.
I guess my point is, it doesn't matter if it's him or the players who was wrong.
They have a present situation, and a good GM ought to always finesse that into the next game. If you stop to assign blame, no good will come of that. If you turn the players complaints into an action item, you give them a chance to get what they wanted if they work for it a bit.
You're correct, of course - I'm just saying that the OP asked who was wrong, so I think it's fair game to give my opinion as to who is wrong.
