Becoming Flat-Footed from an Immediate Action combination triggered by an attack

[Belefauntes]

I am making a Flowing Monk. At this point he will have the following special ability and feat combination:

Redirection (attack triggers option of Immediate Action to Trip and/or Reposition, depending on Monk level. Also might add Sicken condition; Save for half duration.)
Improved Trip (+2 to Trip. +2 vs Trips. Don't provoke AoO's when performing a Trip.)
Vicious Stomp (adjacent targets falling prone provoke AoO from character. Must be an unarmed strike.)
Unbalancing Counter (AoO's render targets flat-footed for one round; save negates.)

Later I'm also planning on taking:
Greater Trip (add'l +2 to Trip. Targets you trip provoke Attacks of Opportunity... presumably from anyone who threatens them)

So here's the deal: If I successfully Trip a target on a Redirect when they attack, do they resolve their attack immediately after the Redirect, or do I get my Vicious Stomp AoO (and later Greater Trip AoO) before they get to resolve their attack? If I resolve my Vicious stomp FIRST and the effect from my Unbalancing Counter successfully renders them flat-footed, do they get to resolve their attack(s) while flat-footed?

Lastly, if I have Greater Trip AND Vicious Stomp, and I trip a target hit them with the AoO from Greater Trip and THAT AoO renders them flat-footed, if I had Sneak Attack damage (from levels in Ninja or Rogue) would I get to apply my Sneak Attack to the Vicious Stomp AoO when they fall prone? (Call this last one a bonus question, haha!)

[TGMaxMaxer]

CRB Immediate action wrote:

Immediate Actions

Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.

Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.

CRB Attacks of Opportunity wrote:

Making an Attack of Opportunity: An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round. You don't have to make an attack of opportunity if you don't want to. You make your attack of opportunity at your normal attack bonus, even if you've already attacked in the round.

An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).

Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity bonus to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.

1: If you Redirect (trip) as an immediate, it doesn't interrupt their action. They make their attack, and then your action goes off. Nowhere does it use interrupt for Immediate or Swift actions, yet AoO's use specifically call it out, as do readied actions. The lack of interrupt in swift/immediate means it goes after the cause. Now, if they happen to be in the middle of a full attack, you would go between the first swing and the second, since the trigger is the first attack. In that case, they finish their full attack after all the other stuff happens in the next couple paragraphs.

Then you have abilities that grant AoOs, which do interrupt, except the specific wording of those two feats use the word successfully, which means they have already fallen prone. AoO's normally happen before the action, which is why those feats call this out.

In your example: They attack. Roll hit and damage if it hits. You Redirect as an immediate, (taking your swift for the next turn). If you succeed on the trip/reposition, (obviously using trip mainly with the extra feats listed in the build), they fall, and make a reflex save for the sickened condition as part of the Redirect. Then, you can make either the Greater Trip AoO, or the Vicious Stomp AoO. I recommend calling out the Vicious Stomp first, with the enemy possibly having the sickened condition and the prone condition, so that you can proc the other Reflex save for Unbalancing Counter, which would make the enemy flat-footed if they fail. Your last AoO from Greater Trip will hit after the sickened, prone, and flat-footed, and with greater trip will also let all the allies that are next to him hit with all the same bonuses. If you happen to have sneak attack, it will apply on this attack, but not on the first AoO, since that is what triggers the flat-footed Reflex save in the first place. And, any other rogue/ninja sneak attacking person will love you, as will people who need to move around the target since he can't take AoO's now unless he has Combat Reflexes.

It's very nasty, provided you succeed.

[Belefauntes]

Per your own quote, "an immediate action can be performed at any time." So, the enemy DECLARES their attack. While they attack, but BEFORE they determine success, I choose to Redirect (attempting a Trip).

You are the only person I've seen who has interpreted this in any way other than that which I just described. You're not "Redirecting" anything if the attack already hit you! What would be the point at that point? It's a defensive reaction in the form of an Immediate Action. The trigger is the target initiates an attack. Everywhere else that I've read, everyone agrees that you determine the Redirection before the enemy determines if the trigger attack succeeds.

[TGMaxMaxer]

I was actually going to say that same thing, until I copied the text for immediate/swift actions, and re-read the monks Redirect ability. I assumed that immediate actions would have the "interrupt" clause that AoO's and Readied actions do, but they don't.

Based on the Redirect triggering on an attack, I actually agree and that is how I would have it work, but without the interrupt language it's a gray area (although fully RAI as I can see it).

[Belefauntes]

My assumption on this is they made the Redirection ability an Immediate Action instead of an Attack of Opportunity for a couple of reasons. First, as an AoO, this would mean that you could (theoretically) perform the action more than once per round (with Combat Reflexes), and they specifically didn't want that. Second, this avoids cutting into the player's Attacks of Opportunity for the round, which could be restrictive without Combat Reflexes. Last, the ability is replacing Stunning Fist, which doesn't require the use of an Attack of Opportunity to perform.

It's remotely possible that the RAI for this ability -- which should obviously be an action intended to, ahem, redirect an attacker either away or to the ground (or both) before they get the chance to hit the monk -- may conflict with the RAW. In any event, I never suggested that the Redirection actually "interrupted" the triggering attack, merely that the Redirection would be performed before determining the results of the triggering attack.

Nevertheless, you didn't answer my question in any way. LOL!

[TGMaxMaxer]

Yeah, I did. If the Redirect happens before the attack completes, then just jump straight to the remainder of my description above, then let him take his attack.

After the Redirect, sickened save, Vicious Stomp, Flat footed Save, Greater trip AoO (with sneak attack if he fails the Unbalancing save), he gets to attack from prone, while sickened, and flat-footed, and taking at least 2 attacks from you and possibly some from allies.

By the way, the Wis to Combat Maneuvers in addition to str/dex is from Maneuver Master level 5.

[Belefauntes]

I must have missed it. So, the target DOES get to resolve any attacks while they are flat-footed? I didn't know if anyone could attack while flat-footed (without Combat Reflexes as a reaction to AoO's).

Thanks for the heads up on Maneuver Master.... Doesn't stack with Flowing Monk, unfortunately... However, Sensei get's Insightful Strike, which substitutes Wisdom in lieu of Str or Dex on Attack Roll and Combat Maneuver checks! :D

[TGMaxMaxer]

True, but Sensei doesn't work with Flowing Monk either.

[Belefauntes]

Only because of the 2nd level feat... If I were will, and my GM allowed, I could sac my 1st level feat in it's place. I'm not sure I'm willing, hahaha, but I could probably get away with it.

[Belefauntes]

Oh, and Fast Movement... I didn't catch that. Grrr!

[Belefauntes]

Okay, I need a bit more clarification on this point:

What actions (if any) can be taken when a target is forced to be flat-footed?

Unbalancing Counter can cause a target to become flat-footed when stuck by an attack of opportunity. I'll use a different example than above.

On the Flowing Monk's initiative, he chooses to perform a Trip combat maneuver. Among his feats he has Vicious Stomp and/or Greater Trip. One allows the monk to make an AoO when he trips a target, the other grants him an AoO when a target he threatens falls prone. The action goes down as follows:

1) On the monk's initiative, the monk successfully trips their target.
2) The act of tripping the target and/or the target becoming prone adjacent to the monk incurs an attack of opportunity.
3) The monk makes a successful attack of opportunity. This triggers the Unbalancing Counter effect.
4) The target fails it's save against the Unbalancing Counter effect and is rendered flat-footed "until the end of the monk's next turn."
5) The target's initiative comes around. Can it do anything as it has been rendered flat-footed "until the end of the monk's NEXT initiative"?

I have yet to find anything that states what, if any, actions can be performed while suffering from the flat-footed condition, other than attacks of opportunity IF the flat-footed individual possesses the Combat Reflexes feat.

Can any actions be taken when a target is forced to remain flat-footed through it's initiative??????????

[Majuba]

Flat-footed simply does two things:

Denies them their Dex bonus to AC (unless they have Uncanny Dodge class feature)

Prevents them from making attacks of opportunity (unless they have Combat Reflexes feat)

The rules don't discuss limitations on other actions, because in the Core Rules, there aren't many (any?) ways to be flat-footed during your own turn (as the basic definition of flat-footed is have not acted on your turn yet). They are clear on what it prevents, and it's only those things. You can even use immediate actions (e.g. featherfall) while flat-footed.

So yes, they get to make any attacks on you that they can.

FYI - I'm not sure if Greater Trip + Vicious Stomp has been clarified - it seems to be an AoO for the same action. Typically a single action will only provoke a single AoO (e.g. a move action only provokes once, even though you may leave several threatened squares).

[Belefauntes]

Actually, you are wrong about Immediate Actions. On page 189 of the Core Rulebook, the last line of the last paragraph explaining Immediate Actions states "You also cannot use an Immediate Action if you are flat-footed."

So, now we know you can't take attacks of opportunity, you can't make immediate actions, and you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC and CMD (if you have any).

I think it would have been better if they had done this, instead:

Belefauntes' Suggested Alteration wrote:

Unbalancing Counter (Ex)

At 2nd level, a flowing monk's attacks of opportunity render a struck creature stunned until the end of the flowing monk's next turn (Reflex DC 10 + 1/2 monk's level + WIS modifier negates).

This ability replaces the bonus feat gained at 2nd level.

I would have picked something less intense than stunned, but it's the only other condition I can find, other than paralyzed, that causes the target to lose it's Dex bonus to AC and has a solid definition on what the target can do (nothing!)

And yes, according to the FAQ/Errata on the subject:

Paizo - The FAQ That Time Forgot wrote:

Q. The Greater Trip feat allows you to take an attack of opportunity against a foe that you trip. The Vicious Stomp feat allows you to take an attack of opportunity against a foe that falls prone adjacent to you. If you have both these feats and trip a foe, do you get to make two attacks of opportunity (assuming that you can)?

A. Yes, the two triggering acts are similar here but they are different. One occurs when you trip a foe. The other occurs when a foe falls prone. It requires a large number of feats to accomplish, but you can really pile on the attacks with this combination.

The FAQ That Time Forgot

[Majuba]

You are absolutely correct on both points (no immediate actions while flat-footed, and two AoOs for Greater Trip/Vicious Stomp).

However I absolutely do not believe they intended to daze and deny dex with Unbalancing Counter. They're unbalanced, not smacked senseless. Flat-footed is not that harsh a condition.

[Belefauntes]

Unfortunately, I'm not psychic. I'm not sure what they intended. They saddled the ability with a condition that has no definition in regards to how it works if it's applied to the target during combat (as opposed to on the surprise round). And what's more, all other instances of making a target flat-footed during combat only ever apply to the effect that triggered the flat-footed status... the condition is never left to linger "until the end of the <attacker's> next turn."

I don't think there is any other circumstance that I can dig up where an active combatant can be placed in the flat-footed condition THROUGH their own initiative. Either an individual is flat-footed on the surprise round until their turn in the initiative order, at which time they are able to act, which instantly removes the flat-footed condition, OR they very specific circumstances can apply the flat-footed condition to the individual for a specific action, and only in regards to the actions of the triggering antagonist.

Here we have a flat-footed condition which is applied to a target who then must not only bear the burden of that condition through their next initiative, but, by the RAW, the condition can be capitalized upon by all potential adversaries who might be able to attack the target over the period of time for which the condition affects them.

It is due to the extremely unique nature of Unbalancing Counter, the condition it applies, the duration of the condition, and the lack of information regarding the condition for such a rare circumstance that I am looking for clarification on:
What actions (if any) can be taken by a creature when that creature is forced to become flat-footed during or through its initiate turn?

*corrected the verbiage of that question*

[Belefauntes]

As a side note, the fact that it is specified that Immediate Actions and Attacks of Opportunity cannot be taken by flat-footed creatures (unless they possess Combat Reflexes, in the case of the latter) coupled with the fact that NORMALLY the flat-footed condition ends upon the creature's initiative turn (when they are permitted to act), leads me to feel it is implied that in most circumstances a flat-footed character is unable to act.

You say "they're unbalanced, not smacked senseless", but a round only lasts 6 seconds... maybe they're spending that entire 6 seconds trying to regain their balance/bearing and can't do anything but focus on evening themselves out.

I can't begin to guess at what the RAI are, and the RAW regarding flat-footed don't give enough information for this situation.

[Belefauntes]

It occurs to me that, even if flat-footed characters are unable to take any actions whatsoever for the duration of the flat-footed condition, as I am interpreting the vague rules, it is still a step up from being Stunned. The flat-footed character does not have to drop whatever they're holding, nor do they suffer the additional -2 penalty to AC associated with being stunned.

Just throwing that out there.

[Majuba]

It's replacing an ability that is limited uses per day, and allows a saving throw. I get that it is unusual, but there is no reason to believe that flat-footed prevents all actions entirely. It's a hefty step up from just "denied Dexterity Bonus to AC" already.

While it's very unusual for the condition to linger, the condition itself *is clear* on what it restricts.

Also... I don't see that this ability necessarily occurs prior to the attack. Yes, immediate actions can be used "anytime", but the ability itself limits you to when you are attacked, and nothing in the description indicates it could prevent the attack from completing (even when you can reposition from an ally being attacked). This needs clarity, not flat-footed.

[Belefauntes]

You are confusing two abilities, possibly from my initial example. Redirection and Unbalancing Counter. This is why in my more recent example I stated that unbalancing counter was being used on the monk's initiative.

However, let's suppose it isn't. Unbalanced Counter is applies a condition (flat-footed) when an Attack of Opportunity is made by the monk. The enemy could be leaving the monk's threatened area, casting a spell, drinking a potion, or any other number or actions which incur AoO's. So the monk makes an Attack of Opportunity in response to something the enemy does. An Attack of Opportunity "interrupts the flow of combat" and is initiated BEFORE the action has the chance to complete! So.... if becoming flat-footed were to prevent a character from carrying out actions, then Unbalancing Counter would actually stop the action which incurred the Attack of Opportunity from being completed.

I disagree with your premise that it's clear on what the flat-footed condition restricts. If I were running the game, without a better official ruling/explanation, I would rule that being flat-footed prevented any actions, as a lesser version of stun. This is why I'm trying to get some sort of OFFICIAL ruling on the matter.