How Good are these Rogue Builds?

[Kyoko Hitomu]

Hey all,

I've been messing with some rogue builds for a Halfling and have came up with a few. I've been trying to focus on ways to stay alive and be effective without dual-wielding and trying to get right into the middle of the mayhem. Let me know what you think of these builds and what one/s seem best!

Halfling Ninja/Scout10, Fighter2 Build:

Stats:
Str: 10! (2)
Dex: 18* (10) +1 @ lvl 8 & 12
Con: 15 (7) +1 @ lvl 4
Int: 7 (-4)
Wis: 10 (0)
Cha: 16* (5)

Halfling Traits Swapped Out:
Adaptable Luck (replaces Halfling Luck)
Swift as Shadows (replaces Sure-Footed)

Traits:
Reactionary +2init
Armor Expert (wearing Mithral BP later)

Build:
1) Fighter 1: Point-Blank Shot (fighter), Fortunate One (lvl 1)
2) Ninja/Scout 1:
3) Ninja/Scout 2: Vanishing Trick (ninja), Bludgeoner (lvl 3)
4) Ninja/Scout 3: +1 Dex
5) Ninja/Scout 4: Shadow Clone (ninja), Sap Adept (lvl 5)
6) Ninja/Scout 5:
7) Ninja/Scout 6: Bleeding Attack (ninja), Sap Master (lvl 7)
8) Fighter 2: Charging Hurler (fighter), +1 Con
9) Ninja/Scout 7: Adaptive Fortune (lvl 9)
10) Ninja/Scout 8: Forgotten Tricks (ninja)
11) Ninja/Scout 9: FREE Feat (lvl 11)
12) Ninja/Scout 10: Invisible Blade (ninja), +1 Str

Uses Agile Kusarigama and throwing hammers to get charge sneak attacks. Dealing 10d6 non-lethal SA's with 10dmg bleed attack attached.

Halfling Filcher Build 1:

Stats:
Str: 9! (1)
Dex: 19* (13) +1 @ lvl 4, lvl 8, lvl 12
Con: 14 (5)
Int: 10 (0)
Wis: 14 (5)
Cha: 9* (-4)

Halfling Traits Swapped Out:
Adaptable Luck (replaces Halfling Luck)
Swift as Shadows (replaces Sure-Footed)

Traits:
Reactionary +2init
Armor Expert (wearing Mithral BP later)

Build:
1) Fighter 1: Improved Initiative (fighter), Bludgeoner (lvl 1)
2) Filcher 1:
3) Filcher 2: Ki Pool (rogue), Fortunate One (lvl 3)
4) Filcher 3: +1 Dex
5) Filcher 4: Improved Steal (filcher), Ninja Trick: Vanishing Tricks (rogue), Adaptive Fortune (lvl 5)
6) Filcher 5:
7) Filcher 6: Rogue Talent: Bleeding Attack (rogue), Sap Adept (lvl 7)
8) Fighter 2: Sap Master (fighter), +1 Dex
9) Filcher 7: Rogue Talent: Offensive Defense (lvl 9)
10) Filcher 8: Greater Steal (filcher), Rogue Talent: FREE (rogue)
11) Filcher 9: FREE (lvl 11)
12) Filcher 10: Invisible Blade (rogue), +1 Dex

Can throw Light Hammers, use a Sling, or a Jutte for non-lethal Sneak Attack damage. If using Jutte I can use to disarm, but would need to pickup Weapon Finesse. Added Ki Pool, and Vanish, gives an incentive to up Wis for better will saves while improving ki pool.

10d6 non-lethal dmg for SA, 10dmg bleed attacks attached. Free Rogue and a lvl11 feat that I've not decided on either.

Halfling Filcher Build 2:

Filcher 1: Sap Adept
Filcher 2: Trick: Finesse Rogue
Filcher 3: Fortunate One
Filcher 4: Improved Steal (filcher), Trick: Fast Stealth
Filcher 5: Sap Master
Filcher 6: Trick: Fast Fingers or Offensive Defense
Filcher 7: Adaptive Fortune
Filcher 8: Greater Steal (filcher), Trick: Slow Reactions
Filcher 9: FREE Feat
Filcher 10: Trick: Weapon Snatcher
Filcher 11: FREE Feat
Filcher 12: Trick: Skill Mastery (Sleight of Hand, Appraise, Stealth, Acrobatics)

Removed lvl9 and 11 feats which were TWF. Probably better off adding rogue talents in their place to add survivability. This build just focuses more on what a Filcher does, steal things. Weapon Snatcher and Skill Mastery added for better shenanigans.

Halfling Ninja12:

Str: 10! (2)
Dex: 19* (13) +1 @ 4
Con: 12 (2)
Int: 7 (-4) +1 @ 12
Wis: 10 (0)
Cha: 17* (7) +1 @ 8

1) Fortunate One (lvl 1)
2) Trick: Smoke Bomb
3) Adaptive Fortune (lvl 3)
4) Trick: Poison Bomb
5) Bludgeoner (lvl 5)
6) Trick: Choking Bomb
7) Sap Adept (lvl 7)
8) Trick: Vanishing Tricks
9) Sap Master (lvl 9)
10) Master Trick: Assassinate
11) Rogue Talent: Bleeding Attack (lvl 11)
12) Master Trick: Blinding Bomb

Ki Pool @ 12: Half Ninja Lvl (6) + Charisma Mod (4) + Items (3) = 13
DC: 10 + 6 + 7 = 23 Fort Save

Items accounted for: Agile Kusarigama, +4 Cha head slot, +2 Cha Ioun Stone

This build focuses on a high Charisma for higher Bomb DC's and Assassinate DC's. I slowly get the feats in for Sap Master for a 12d6 non-lethal SA + 12dmg bleed attack attached. Not sure if I can use Blinding Bomb then study and Assassinate but I should be able to deny Dex bonuses through Vanishing Tricks or Blinding Bombs to deal SA's safely. 13 Ki Pool should last 4 combats per a session.

Human Drunken Master6/Ninja6:

Human: +2str, +2con
Traits: Adopted:
Enlightened Warrior: NG or N monk
Fortified Drinker: +2 trait bonus vs mind-affecting effects for 1hour after drinking.

Str: 19* (13)
Dex: 14 (5)
Con: 16* (5)
Int: 7 (-4)
Wis: 14 (5)
Cha: 7 (-4)

1) Drunken Master 1: Bab +0, Dodge (monk), Toughness (lvl 1)
2) Monk 2: Bab +1, Improved Grapple (monk)
3) Monk 3: Bab +2, Dragon Style (lvl 3)
4) Monk 4: Bab +3, +1 Str
5) Monk 5: Bab +3, Dragon Ferocity (lvl 5)
6) Monk 6: Bab +4, Dodge (monk)
7) Ninja 1: bab +4, SA 1d6, Fast Drinker (lvl 7)
8: Ninja 2: Bab +5, Ninja Trick: Forgotten Trick, +1 Str
9) Ninja 3: Bab +6/+1, SA 2d6, FREE (lvl 9)
10) Ninja 4: Bab +7/+2, Ninja Trick: Rogue Talent - FREE , Uncanny Dodge (ninja)
11) Ninja 5: Bab + 7/+2, SA 3d6, Deep Drinker (lvl 11)
12) Ninja 6: Bab +8/+3, Light Steps (ninja), Ninja Trick: Rogue Talent - FREE, +1 Str

Ki Pool – half lvl (ninja and monk stack for 6) + Wis Mod (2) + Drunken Pool (2) = 10 Ki total.
Monk Saves: 5/5/5 + Ninja Saves : 2/5/2 = Total Saves: 7/10/7

DM5 gives 2 drunken ki pool, get necklace that reduces ki cost for Forgotten Tricks to 1 ki and I can FT -> Trick for 2 ki and drink to regain lost ki. 3d6 SA, 2 free Rogue Talents available, Dragon Style with Str provides some damage but damage isn't the #1 focus, versatility of FT for anything without spending real Ki is pretty "ki" to this build. Feel free to suggest feats/tricks to improve.

Conclusion:

The Human build is a build added onto my current Monk I'm playing in a PFS game. I lose quite a bit by stopping at monk6, but gain quite a bit with Forgotten Tricks and additional Ninja benefits. I figured I'd share this build and allow others to make suggestions/improvements for my current character.

The Halfling builds I'm trying to figure out how to best build as Halflings are better at stealth, stealing, and a few other things. I'm not sure how the pure Filcher build would work in PFS.

I've also tried a "Pseudo Ninja" Fighter/Filcher build with Rogue Talent Ki Pool to give access to invisibility when needed. Picking Fighter up for Martial proficiency and Armor proficiency along with a few extra feats.

Also tried a a Ninja/Scout build to hurl throwing hammers at 20ft+ while charging to enable sneak attack. On paper this looks great as it allows me to "enable" sneak attacks effectively and safely while not being in the frontline.

Let me know what you think of these builds. I'm building these around PFS and trying to work around the Halfling's strengths. The Human build is just one I felt like sharing that I'm eventually building my current Monk towards.

[Kyoko Hitomu]

*Bump* I know there's people out there that play rogues. Any advice or thoughts on which builds are best?

[XMorsX]

I like most the Filcher with weapon snacher, it is really unique. It is true that twf feats do not work, a nice way to round up the build are the feats Iron Will and Defensive Combat Training.

It is a shame not to take Fleet of Foot from the alternative racial traits. These is also nice synergy betwenn Halfling Luck and the trait Fate's Favored.

[Kyoko Hitomu]

I'm tempted to go with the Fate's Favored, I'd have to buy U-Campaign but it's almost worth it to free up 2 feats. I like the Adaptive Luck chain also though since it's a +3 to any atk/save/ability/skill check after the roll 5 times a day. It's able to affect a wider range and 5x's should work for any pfs session.

I took most of your Filcher advice with the 2nd build. :) Just not sure how to up the survivability if I'm getting up-close to the enemy with stealing stuff, and live to tell about it.

I was originally going with Fleet of Foot, but I wasn't sure how "Great" Swift as Shadows is for a rogue/ninja. I assumed it was a trump over the +10ms if playing a stealther. Let me know what you think.

[XMorsX]

Kyoko Hitomu wrote:

I'm tempted to go with the Fate's Favored, I'd have to buy U-Campaign but it's almost worth it to free up 2 feats. I like the Adaptive Luck chain also though since it's a +3 to any atk/save/ability/skill check after the roll 5 times a day. It's able to affect a wider range and 5x's should work for any pfs session.

I took most of your Filcher advice with the 2nd build. :) Just not sure how to up the survivability if I'm getting up-close to the enemy with stealing stuff, and live to tell about it.

I was originally going with Fleet of Foot, but I wasn't sure how "Great" Swift as Shadows is for a rogue/ninja. I assumed it was a trump over the +10ms if playing a stealther. Let me know what you think.

Well, glad to see you liked my ideas.

A far as survivability is concerned, in my build I had enforcer at lvl 3 in order to lower the enemies' attack bonus and Offensive defence at 4th lvl for increasing AC. Also bear in mind that without Piranha Strike your damage is going to be mediocre even with sap adept-master, thanks to the dex focus.

Finally I believe that the increased mobility Fleet of Foot provides is superior to the Stealth bonus that Swift as Shadows gives.

[Kyoko Hitomu]

I think the biggest thing to remember is that Rogues aren't the superstar in combat. They're helpful in scouting, trapfinding, and a wide arrangement of skills. I think the focus is for the rogue to get in a few sneak attacks, distract 1 or a few enemies, and buy time for the tanks and real dps to do the work.

I know rogues do a lot of damage but if a rogue is able to dish a few sneak attacks and stay alive they've contributed to dealing damage and aren't being a liability for the healers in the group. Hopefully that makes sense, I'd rather focus on upping sneak damage, ability to get sneak damage in, and avoiding damage and failed saves so I'm not weighing my team down as a liability. There's plenty of classes that are geared better to deal damage and abilities like Power Attack and Piranha Strike only reduce the already 3/4 BAB that rogues/ninjas have to work with.

Thoughts on Ninja's Ki Pool:

I've also contemplated playing a ninja and picking Ninja Trick: Rogue Talent: Ki Pool at level 2. That way I could just dump Charisma and boost Wisdom (using Wis mod for Ninja Ki Pool), would lose a few points in Cha based skills but would up my Will save a few points at the cost of 1 feat and probably upping some other stats also.

Anyone have experience with a Filcher? I'm really curious to see HOW EFFECTIVE a theif/disarmer would be in PFS and whether they are more of an asset or liability compared to typical rogues.

I also have no idea how useful/good Choking Bombs are or if Blinding Bombs is worth getting OR if Assassinate is even easy to pull off in a typical setting. This is all in a PFS setting so I have no clue what monster styles I'd be fighting at lvl 8-12 and what issues are present with using Assassinate in a fight.

[Kyoko Hitomu]

For the love of Halflings! Anyone....Someone?

EDIT: Ignore my thoughts on Ninja's Ki Pool. I didn't realize that the Ki Pool Rogue Talent converted to only a bonus when you gain a Ki Pool from a class. Darn :(

[Kyoko Hitomu]

Anyone familiar with Filcher or stealing/disarming opponents? I've not been able to find much on the messageboards regarding how filcher plays out and how effective/useful they turn out to be....or if they become a liability in later levels.