Greetings,
I am contemplating the multiattack bonus feat the eidolon gets at summoner level 9. At first i was amazed and thought this would allow for ridiculous damage output. I ended up only seeing it as a good way to overcome DR. I'll build a fine (not min-maxed to the death) eidolon of level 10, and show how close they are in damage output, with the weapon wielder actually falling behind on relevant monsters. Please, critique the builds, i think they are rather straight forward, but i am pretty sure i dropped the ball in my attempt to make the most out of multiattack. Enlighten me.
For this comparaison, I'll use biped form, half-elf summoner with favored class option put into eidolon's evo points, max number of natural attacks, and compare the builds based on the damage expected on level appropriate monster, and use the extra evo points/feats availlable post build to measure it's flexibility.
Both Eidolon will take the flight evo for mobility and rule of cool, and the large evolution for pure awesomeness. The former helps the Multiattack user more, as wings will grant easy 2 secondary attacks for 1 point. The latter will benefit both.
1) Frenzy NatAt
NatAt just doesn't care about weapons. He rips faces with his claws and is damn good at it.
level 10
Evo points : 14+2
Evolutions :
large (4pts)
flight (2pts)
extra limbs (2pts)
claws (1 pt)
bite (2x1pt)
Str score is
16+8(large)+4(auto bumps)+2(level bumps choice)+2(belt of strenght) = 32
spare evo points : 5.
feats used : 0.
offense gear : belt str +2, AoMF +2; 20k /62k.
Attack routine :
AB = bab(+8) + str(+11) + AoMF(+2) -size(-1)= +20
Bite/claws x4
+20(1d8+18)/+20x4 (1d6+13)
average damage on all hits : 88.5
2) McStick ++
McStick uses the biggest meanest weapon to damage his foes, and supplement his full attack routine with 5 secondary attacks.
level 10
Evo points : 14+2
Evolutions :
large (4pts)
flight (2pts)
wing buffet (1pt)
tentacle (2x1pt)
bite (1pt)
Str score is still 32
spare evo points : 6.
feats used : 1 (greatsword proficiency)
offense gear : belt str +2, AoMF +1, greatsword +2; 16k /62k.
Attack routine :
AB (sword)= bab(+8) + str(+11) + enhancement(+2) -size(-1)= +20
AB (secondary attacks)= bab(+8) + str(+11) + AoMF(+1) -size(-1)-multiattack(-2)= +17
Sword/Sword/Bite/wings x2/tentacles x2
+20(3d6+18)/+15(3d6+18)/+17(1d8+6)/+17x2 (1d6+6)/+17x2 (1d6+6)
average damage on all hits : 105.5
Now, if everything lands, that's nice, but a CR 11 monster can be expected to be an average encounter, with an AC of 25. When that factored in (i didn't do the crits), the expected damage of Fury NatAt and McStick drop to 66.38 and 64.73, respectively. It goes south for McStick on higher AC, of course.
So all things considered, McStick uses a feat, frees up 1 evo point, to do more damage on trivial monsters. He has more flexibility to counter DR, as a weapon is much cheaper to enchance.
Both have the option to get reach on the bite for extra control, very cheap. Or the elemental damage on natural attacks. That one helps Frenzy NatAt somewhat more due to higher AB on his naturals.
Could McStick use the reach evolution on the weapon attacks? Has it been ruled for or against? RAW do not deny that possibility, but I can see RAI fluff to restrict it to natural attacks.
I also hand-weaved the fact that McStick build is not RAW legal, as it's impossible to forgo the innate claws on the eidolon. Still,i don't think that changes the numbers at all as you can grant proper 5 secondary attacks for the same evo budget. Something like (base)2claws,wing buffet, bite, and instead of tentaclesx2 you could get extra limbs for the sword.
Am I missing something in trying to make more out of Multiattack ?
No one can assist?
Is the summoner/eidolon a horse that has been beat to death, rez-ed and put to death again ?
As can been seen in the proposed builds, it's nothing like powergaming min/maxing, I am just trying to figure out how to effectively use Multiattack in a meaningful way.
Looking at the multiattack ability given to eidolons and animal companions, it acutally either gives the feat or a special clause when there are less that 3 natural attacks.
This clause is the addition of an iterative attack (as in at BAB-5). This sounds nice and all, but how do you take advantage of it? Well, you build an eidolon with only one natural attack (the quadruped or aquatic base forms are the only options for this).
With only a single natural attack, a creature automatically makes it primary, and adds 1.5x STR and power attack mods onto it. Another trick is to add another point into the bite evolution, which also causes it to get 1.5x bonus damage (I am unsure how these two cases stack though, if they do. 2xSTR, but only 1.5 power attack, might be a nice benchmark for the math, but please, someone correct me if I am wrong).
Of course, there is a limit to how much you can do, even with two big attacks like this. So the goal is to make up for the attack difference through reach, combat reflexes, and AoO's. Increasing the eidolon's size also helps increase strength even further (38 at level 20 without accounting ability score increases from evos, level ups, and items). Improved natural attack is also a must (3d6 bite on a huge eidolon with this feat). Let's also pick trip, grab, and poison to give even more use out of this attack. Heck, add swallow whole just to make this thing seem truly frightening. The rest of the evo points go either into ability score increases or defensive options such as improved natural armor.
I was aware of this clause in case the eidolon doesn't have 3+ natural attacks, but i was aiming at combining 3+ natural attacks with manufactured weapon iteratives.
I don't find the rule off-hand but I am pretty sure it is basically : You can always use a weapon with iteratives, in addition to your natural attacks, in which case all natural attacks are at -5 and considered secondary (half str mod to dmg).
IF you have the multiattack feat, those secondary attacks are now only at -2 penalty.
Am I missing something?
Secondary attacks also only get 1/2 power attack damage, much like an offhand attack with a manufactured weapon. Just thought that was worth mentioning. Not sure if your math includes power attack, but it is still good to remember, for other people reading at least.
Well, you also can add claws onto one set of feet? It is a weird thing with eidolons, which may only stem from the fact that you can make quadrapeds without arms. It has caused a lot of debate when discussing other classes and builds, but still, it is an option for all eidolons.
You could start with a quadraped, save a point on bite, and spend that on claws on the feet. Then remove the tentacles and get arms. This approach gives the option to gain pounce, which it would help a lot due to all of those attacks.
I appreciate your input, but I was not aimaing at min/maxing the eidolon per se, so i just used the biped as a base to compare.
Of course pounce is almost a no-brainer if you really want to ramp up dmg and mobility, but that was not the intent of my post.
What I am really after is for a way to make more (slightly more?) out of Multiattack.
Your point is valid regarding power attack; it changes the numbers for both builds. The penalty apply to both builds but 5 attacks out of 7 on the sword + natural build will only gain 1x the penalty to dmg, but the 2 sword attacks will gain 1:3 benefit. For the all natural attacks build the bite gets 1:3 while the 4 others will gain 1:2.
Not sure it changes the numbers that much though, maybe i should start looking at a really more exotic builds to boost multiattack benefits, such as Two weapons fighting -> multiweapon fighting (kali builds) PLUS the naturals as secondaries.
But i expected something a little less creepy to leverage Multiattack.
And yeah, the claws on feet is definetly something they added to get a tiger-like beast quadruped. It's wording has the side-effect of giving the biped 5 primary attacks for only 2 evo points (base claws x2 + bite (1pt) + claws on 1 set of limbs(feet) 1pt, which just happen to be their ONLY limbs(feet)).
I didn't take advantage of this. Seems silly. Although the Monster in Hyperion (endymion?, or was it Ilium/Olympos?), that resides in the space station, does meet that silliness.
I think the flaw in your thinking is assuming multi atttack exists solely for a weapon wielding eidolon. Not all of an eidolons natural attacks are primary.
Although I think this would only affect a tentacled horror.
I think you are right Mojo.
The problem is that it's too easy to build an all primary attack eidolon.
In some cases it's even easier than building with secondary attacks (see above 2 evo pts for 5 primary attacks option).
So since the eidolon is capped in the number of natural attacks (good thing), and it's cheap to reach that maximum in terms of primary attacks per evo points, it's really asking for it to build around secondaries.
I somehow wished they implemented a maximum number of primary attacks into the eidolon progression per level, like the number of natural attack cap. Then multiattack would be a nice power bump instead of being lackluster.
I read the title and thought, "Pimp multiattack... is that cleaving when you backhand?"
I don't think it's appropriate to discuss my RL encounters and interventions when i feel cheated by my work force.
I prefer to discuss monstrous fantasy. Oh wait...