Sorry, this is a very basic question.
A party is gathering loot from a few dead enemies when a monster appears around the corner. A bad perception roll failed to detect its approach.
Is the party automatically suprised?
Do they get to make a save of some kind to avoid being suprised?
Would this be based on their reaction (Ref) or them actually being startled (Wil)?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
what do you mean "automatically"? They're not "automatically" surprised, they're surprised because they failed a perception roll.
So to sum up, they fail a perception roll and the enemy gets a surprise round. They don't get a save to avoid being surprised, that is what the perception roll was for in the first place.
Since this is a Rules Questions forum, here are the relevant rules:
Surprise
When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you're surprised.
Determining Awareness
Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.
Determining awareness may call for Perception checks or other checks.
So in the OP's scenario, there were no PCs who would satisfy the first rule "When a combat starts, if you are aware of your opponents" but the monster sees the PCs, right? They are in plain sight, looting the dead without hiding, stealth, cover, or concealment?
In that case, the PCs are surprised and the monster is not. Roll initiatives for everyone but give the monster its surprise round.
To respond to the OP's last questions, note the final sentence of what I quoted: "Determining awareness may call for Perception checks or other checks." This means that the GM did the right thing, allowed a Perception check to spot the monster. Since they failed, there is nothing else to roll, especially no saving throws. They're surprised - period.
I do have one question. You said "A bad perception roll failed to detect its approach" but there is more than one PC, right? They ALL get a chance to roll Perception.
Was the monster being stealthy? If not, then the PCs have line of sight to the monster as soon as it "appears around the corner". The DC to see a creature in plain sight is 0. Add +1 for every 10' of distance. If that corner was, say, 40 feet away, then the DC to see the monster is 4. Almost every PC ever created (except stupid ones) can automatically make that at level 1. How did they all fail their Perception check?
Even if you rule that the PCs are distracted, that never adds more than +5 to the DC, and it's a sad, sad, group of adventurers if every one of them is THAT distracted, and still, even at a DC of 9, it still takes a bunch of bad rolls for all of them to miss it.
Maybe the monster heard them before it stepped into view so it decided to use Stealth, or maybe it just is very cautious and uses Stealth all the time. In any case, since you cannot use Stealth while being observed, the instant it stepped around the corner into plain sight it was no longer using Stealth, and the DC is still 0 + distance.
Finally, recent Stealth rulings allow a monster (or anyone else) to begin their round in Stealth and still move through plain sight until the end of their turn. In that case, the Perception DC would be the monster's Stealth roll, +1 per 10' of distance, maybe plus distraction too.
But since the Surprise Round only allows one move action or one standard action, and since the monster must have been using the corner as cover so it was around the corner at the start of its turn, the only thing it could do during its Surprise Round would be move its Movement Rate and end its turn - it could not even charge unless it has a feat to let it charge around a corner, so it almost certainly could do nothing to the PCs during the surprise round unless there was one of them standing right next to that corner, which would have allowed a 5' move and a single attack - otherwise, all the monster could do would be to run closer and get ready to fight.
Hmm, Im still learning but I would think Combat wasnt initiated until the monster turned the corner, so rounds werent being tracked yet. The first round of combat you have a fully aware and capable monster and a group of unaware adventurers. They are then suprised and cannot act that first round allowing the monster to run away, charge, cast a spell, sing a diddy or whatever.
My question on the 'save' is sort of silly now that I look at it but to my mind simply being unaware is not being suprised. I was assuming suprise was a sort of condition that could be avoided, as in...
"Yorl looked up and saw the hideous thing approaching from around the corner. His eyes widened and he froze. Gellik responded instantly however, jumping in front of his rattled comrade and drew his weapon."
Heck, an opponant in plain sight that acts in a way you didnt anticipate might produce a suprise result. Or am I mixing this up with some other game mechanic?
Hmm, Im still learning but I would think Combat wasnt initiated until the monster turned the corner, so rounds werent being tracked yet. The first round of combat you have a fully aware and capable monster and a group of unaware adventurers. They are then suprised and cannot act that first round allowing the monster to run away, charge, cast a spell, sing a diddy or whatever.
My question on the 'save' is sort of silly now that I look at it but to my mind simply being unaware is not being suprised. I was assuming suprise was a sort of condition that could be avoided, as in...
"Yorl looked up and saw the hideous thing approaching from around the corner. His eyes widened and he froze. Gellik responded instantly however, jumping in front of his rattled comrade and drew his weapon."
Heck, an opponant in plain sight that acts in a way you didnt anticipate might produce a suprise result. Or am I mixing this up with some other game mechanic?
Yes.
The creature should be making a stealth check opposed by the Players perception. There isn't facing in Pathfinder so you actually can't sneak up behind someone unless you can reach them within half your movement speed.
As for an opponent in plain sight that surprises you in manner tends to fall under the purview of feinting. I weave to the right and then come in from the left! Haha!
Well, maybe the monster had Hide in Plain Sight.
*ejects from thread*