RAW using the weapon finesse feat is optional but if you take the agile maneuvers feat its use is mandatory. This is the way that the two feats are phrased in the CRB. Is there a reason for this?
With weapon finesse you are specifically training to use dex with certain weapons, but still maintain the ability to use str with those weapons. With agile maneuvers you are specifically training to use dex for certain combat maneuvers; why wouldn't you still maintain the ability to use str to do them as well?
One person I asked suggested that it is because there are circumstances where using str in an attack would be more beneficial than using dex, but if you chose dex for CMB then it would never be advantageous to swith to using str, so they just phrased it as a constant dex usage. However, enlarge person drops your dex and raises your str, so there are times when switching to str for CMBs could be a smart thing to do.
Is there any rational argument why taking agile maneuvers as a feat makes its use mandatory?
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
the FAQ lists what maneuvers Weapon Finesse applies to.
( trip, disarm, sunder IIRC )
to use dex for maneuvers beyond that, you'll need the Agile Maneuvers feat.
I've never interpreted their use to be manditory. just that you CAN use dex instead of Str.
but be honest, if your Str and Dex are 1 modifier apart, there's not enough value in taking weapon finesse or agile maneuvers. If they're 3 modifiers apart, then there's better reason to take it. ( str 10, dex 16 for example ). even with enlarge person ( str 12, dex 14 ) , you're better off with finesse than strength. and there aren't many spells that will raise your str 4 and drop your dex 4.
If you're a druid or a barbarian, where you're frequently going to bump str and/or dump dex with spells, there also isn't much value in taking finesse, since you'll often be in a position to rage or wild shape and get better Str attacks.
Who says you're forced to use a feat just because you have it? Just because you have Power Attack doesn't mean all your attacks suffer a penalty to attack and a bonus to damage. Just because you have Improved Two-Weapon Fighting doesn't mean you're forced to make that second off-hand attack. Just because you have Agile Maneuvers doesn't mean you're forced to use Dex to your CMB in a niche situation (such as being affected by a +Str or -Dex effect) where it's more advantageous not to use it.
Most feats say something to the effect of, "You may use...," agile maneuvers says, "You use..." No opt out is given in any of the feat descriptor.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
its still a feat. feats provide options.
if you don't like the option, don't take the feat.
Seraphimpunk wrote: its still a feat. feats provide options.
if you don't like the option, don't take the feat.
I think you are missing the OP's question. Is the wording for Agile Maneuvers intentional or an oversight? Most ability-replacement traits/features/et al include "may" in one form or another. AM doesn't, so therefore may simply be an oversight.
Ok, lets take a few examples here.
PRD wrote: Arcane Armor Training (Combat)
You have learned how to cast spells while wearing armor.
Prerequisites: Light Armor Proficiency, caster level 3rd.
Benefit: As a swift action, reduce the arcane spell failure chance due to the armor you are wearing by 10% for any spells you cast this round.
It doesn't say "you can reduce your spell failure chance as a swift action". It makes a statement that could be read as a compulsory command; "As a swift action, (you must) reduce...". By that interpretation, if you take the Arcane armor Training feat, it eats your swift action every single turn whether you are casting a spell or not, whether the spell has somatic components or not, whether you want to risk ASF or not.
PRD wrote: Blinding Critical (Combat, Critical)
Your critical hits blind your opponents.
Prerequisites: Critical Focus, base attack bonus +15.
Benefit: Whenever you score a critical hit, your opponent is permanently blinded. A successful Fortitude save reduces this to dazzled for 1d4 rounds. The DC of this Fortitude save is equal to 10 + your base attack bonus. This feat has no effect on creatures that do not rely on eyes for sight or creatures with more than two eyes (although multiple critical hits might cause blindness, at the GM's discretion). Blindness can be cured by heal, regeneration, remove blindness, or similar abilities.
Special: You can only apply the effects of one critical feat to a given critical hit unless you possess Critical Mastery.
According to that, every single time you score a critical, you must apply the blinded condition on account of, because of the manner in which you trained to deliver criticals, you always go for the eyes... every single time without fail. Unless you also happened to go for the jewels, in which case you have the option of one or the other, but cannot pick "neither". Trying to take in a petty footpad wanted for pick-pocketing? Stab his eyes out in the process!
PRD wrote: Deadly Stroke (Combat)
With a well-placed strike, you can bring a swift and painful end to most foes.
Prerequisites: Dazzling Display, Greater Weapon Focus, Shatter Defenses, Weapon Focus, proficiency with the selected weapon, base attack bonus +11.
Benefit: As a standard action, make a single attack with the weapon for which you have Greater Weapon Focus against a stunned or flat-footed opponent. If you hit, you deal double the normal damage and the target takes 1 point of Constitution bleed (see Conditions). The additional damage and bleed is not multiplied on a critical hit.
Similar to Arcane Armor, it doesn't say "you may", it simply commands you "As a standard action, (you must) make a single attack..." So every turn, regardless of what else you may want to do, you're limited to a single attack using Deadly Stroke as a standard Use Feat action. No full-attacking for you.
PRD wrote: Double Slice (Combat)
Your off-hand weapon while dual-wielding strikes with greater power.
Prerequisite: Dex 15, Two-Weapon Fighting.
Benefit: Add your Strength bonus to damage rolls made with your off-hand weapon.
Normal: You normally add only half of your Strength modifier to damage rolls made with a weapon wielded in your off-hand.
Because of the way you train, you always employ double-slice when you attack with TWF. Even if you're trying to take the enemy alive by doing less damage, you have no capacity to "go easy" on them by foregoing the increased Str bonus to damage if you have taken this feat because, as we all know, characters have zero self-control in combat. And Barbarians, even less so, but they have a mental handicap on account of being uncivilized savages (they are not like us, which means they can't be trusted) so it's pardonable.
There are plenty of examples of feats lacking the "mother, may I" language and plenty that, under certain circumstances, you may not want to employ. To say that a character has zero capacity to not employ an ability at his disposal is ridiculous, whether or not the description of the feat includes "you may" or "you can". These are style differences from the composite of authors who worked on writing these rules. English (among other languages) is a fluid language, as SKR pointed out recently, and they cannot account for every possible interpretation of every word and hammer down every definition of every term without the rulebook being about 15 feet thick. If anyone told me that I can't forego use of a particular feat in a given round when it would be more advantageous for me to do without it because of some gamist BS about how the feat's verbiage doesn't give me a choice in the matter, I'd slap him with a week old salmon and tell him I had a feat that says, "As a standard action, you slap an idiot with a week old salmon."
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Hey,
About the Arcane Armor Training beneficial description… it is just an inverted sentence:
As a swift action, reduce the arcane spell failure chance due to the armor you are wearing by 10% for any spells you cast this round
Equals to:
Reduce the arcane spell failure chance due to the armor you are wearing by 10% for any spells you cast this round as a swift action
So, um, yeah, cool man.
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