Alternate economic systems

[PlatinumShadow]

Alright, so in the Pathfinder game system (and we can thus presume in the game setting itself) all weapons, magic items, spells, materials, goods and services are given a cost in gp (or sp/cp for very mundane items) that PCs must spend in order to purchase, craft or research the particular thing in question.

This is a rather basic form of market capitalism for the PCs, in that there is a standard reserve currency acting as tender for exchange and which everything is valued by. I know its a convenient abstraction for play, but since the PCs are actually doing this in the game (acquiring and spending the money) it has ramifications to the setting as well.

Thinking of most of the nations in Avistan, for example, this makes sense. Most seem to be basically feudal or even mercantilist economies. But there are a few strange ones I am really not sure how such standards would exist like Galt, the revolutionary terror, or Hermea, the autocratic paradise island, for example.

However, say a GM put the PCs in a region where the people didn't use gp as currency, didn't believe in the exclusively private ownership of capital, magic or land. A kind of libertarian socialism with communal land, abolition of money, 'the market' as little more than a free exchange potlach, etc.

How could a GM meaningfully reflect this conscious rejection of economic inequality with regards to the PCs obtaining items, goods, land, magic, etc. in this region with the system? Obviously you do not want to give the players everything literally *for free* because it will imbalance the game. And resources are still, of course, limited.

Can anyone think of any good ideas for alternative rewards to give PCs in such an area in lieu of money (perhaps one of the PCs *themselves* is a firebrand who refuses to use money and thus participate in economic exploitation of the masses or something), mechanics to use for simulating a socialist, classless economy and how this affects the item crafting and spell creation/research process without using GP.

I suspect this question might have even bigger ramifications than I realize, but I am eager to here ideas for this because it is something that I have been wondering about lately and need to come up with something.

[vyshan]

there is bartering as an economic system, which I would imagine among many tribal people would be the main system of exchange of goods.

[PlatinumShadow]

vyshan wrote:

there is bartering as an economic system, which I would imagine among many tribal people would be the main system of exchange of goods.

Are you just suggesting that as an example or indicating it has been worked out somewhere in the rule books? Like how would you establish equivalent value for bartering such things anyway? Just use the GP? Might be difficult to find things worth the exact same GP.

However, bartering still works from the same principles as money exchange (that's why early bartering economies usually identify what is most valuable, easily measured, and transferable and use that as standard currency), that is, the concept of private ownership of land, the source of production. In a socialist society, the whole people share the land and its resources, every person having the right to work it to obtain what they and their communities need. Those with different skills and passions produce arts and craft based on what will benefit the society and exchange their surplus freely with others doing the same thing.

So there would be nothing contradictory about bartering fine crafts like forged weapons or magic items with the PCs, but also no reason the PCs couldn't simply go to the land and obtain the raw resources they need and craft it themselves.

[The Friendly Lich]

Interesting question.

Maybe these non-capitalist paradises don't have many magic items available in the first place.

To craft magic items you need raw materials worth a certain amount - and one interpretation of this is that the raw materials aren't good for magic, unless you paid the appropriate amount of money for them. Also, most magicians would probably want to live in a society that allows them to accumulate wealth in their own private wizard towers.

From this it becomes clear that all non-capitalist paradises don't have a magic item economy to speak of.

All magic items have to be imported from the neighboring countries with foreign exchange.

So if you want magic items, you either go through the official channels. Mengkare would really like to give you all the magic items you need - but, alas, his treasure chambers are empty. So could you please go and collect some foreign gold currency or other treasure which we can use to buy those magic items with?

Alternatively, we have regular non-magical short swords. Well, actually we are out of them right now. But if you wait here in line, maybe we will get a few ones next week.

Or you buy your items on the black market, where again you need foreign gold currency.

[PlatinumShadow]

The Friendly Lich wrote:

To craft magic items you need raw materials worth a certain amount - and one interpretation of this is that the raw materials aren't good for magic, unless you paid the appropriate amount of money for them...From this it becomes clear that all non-capitalist paradises don't have a magic item economy to speak of.

I'm sorry but this doesn't make any sense to me from the setting or rules, nor is it acceptable for my campaign.

Taking this, you would think tribal societies are unable to possess any homemade magical items, and I do not think that is the case.

[FrankManic]

gp is so completely abstracted from actual metal at this point that it has as much "real"ness as xp. It's an abstract resource. You might look at the loot by encounter tables and try to extrapolate how much effort something is worth from that. How many monsters is 500gp? And how many normal people would it take to kill that many monsters?

If my party ended up in a socialist setting and wanted high end equipment they'd either need to contact the black market or go to the government. If the black market had their items they'd have to find a way to pay for it that worked in context - Gold might be worth something, but boots (in a dystopian socialism) or bespoke luxury goods (in a utopian socialism) would probably be worth more. Hell - in a utopian communism running at a level of limited post-scarcity they might be asked to pay with ideas, poetry, mathematics, or other information.

If they went to the government they'd have to demonstrate that diverting resources to them beyond what any individual is usually allotted would benefit the society as a whole. If they can demonstrate that a dragon led army of demons is lurking on the borders the society might well mobilize their full military might to defend their country and hire the PCs on as special advisers. That could give them access to lots of human resources and a certain amount of heavy equipment. If the PCs couldn't demonstrate a compelling reason to divert resources they'd be out of luck. For kicks you could reason that the fantasy-socialists (utopian type) really do believe in the good of their society and so that when the PCs help carry the day they' be rewarded... with a parade. and newspaper interviews. And being asked to give speeches at factory openings about the important of applying your individual talents for the good of all people. And basically everything but the economic rewards PCs are usually due. Then reverse expectations on them again - They might be disappointed that they didn't get phat lute but from now on everyone they meet in that society is genuinely thrilled to meet them and willingly helps them out with information, transport, room and board, translation services, and all kinds of labor assistance. They didn't get a magic sword, but they did get a kind of national recognition that will allow them to pop into the party administrative office in the distant hinterlands, ask for help, and be quickly provided with two dozen well motivated police/soldiers.

It's an interesting question, though. Even the character advancement mechanics are built around extreme materialistic, individualistic assumptions. Re-tooling things to account for a more community focused, 'for the good' concept could lead to some hilarious and unexpected results.