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It just occurred to me that there is nothing saying that you can't use the Preferred spell feat to spontaneously cast a spell from your opposition school.
So this would still only cost one slot right?
So if I have Necromancy as an opposition school, I can take Enervation as a preferred spell and still only spend one slot to cast it.
Any reason this won't work?
Hm,... Interesting thought.
Although, it does plainly state that your opposition school take 2 slots to prepare & cast. While you may be able to use Preferred Spell to cast a spell from your opposition school, (It doesn't say that you can't) It also does not say that it bypasses the 2-slot rule for opposition spells.
I can see an argument in a home game for ruling that it is allowed, It could be said that taking the feat(s) required to do so would be payment enough for bypassing the rule. And it is for only one spell, not all of necromancy (or whatever your opposition school is)
However, I'm pretty sure that by RAW it is not going to be allowed.
My 2cp.
I shall leave the discussions/final decision to those far more advanced in their PRRPG rules-lawyerlyness than I.
:)
Thanks for the interesting thought, I like it for certain RP reasons as well as the game-rules.
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You're welcome!
"However, I'm pretty sure that by RAW it is not going to be allowed. "
This contradicts everything you said before it. The RAW says, "sacrifice one spell to cast one spell." I'm pretty sure this works, I just want to find out if anyone can break this logic. If you want to argue that it goes against the Rules As Intended, you may or may not be right, but that's not "RAW"
Perhaps I misused the term 'RAW'? My apologies. I probably meant RAI?
I was just saying that I could certainly make an argument for it in a home game, (At least my home games) where the final interpretation of 'Rules as intended/written' is ultimately up to the GM and players. I know my old group made dozens of decisions that have gone against 'RAI/RAW' because it made more sense to us and made the game 'more fun' in our interpretation.
I'm just pointing out that while I agree with your logic (does not say specifically you CAN'T use Preferred Spell to cast an Opposition spell, ergo it should work) It also does not specifically say that it allows the breaking of the '2 slots for 1 opposition spell' rule. So there will be some who say it will not.
However, it IS a 'Preferred Spell', logically you know this ONE SPELL better than all others of your opposition school,... etc. :)
Ergo my comment about leaving it to others who are far more knowledgeable about the finer points of rules-interaction and what-trumps-what than myself. :)
On these boards, I will never make any claim to be the (top) rules lawyer of the group. :)
I still like the idea, because if you are correct, it can be used to CIRCUMNAVIGATE the '2 for 1' rule, with out 'breaking' it IMHO. I had never considered that feat for that use before. And as I said, I like it for the interesting RP choices it opens up.
Carry on! :)
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Fair enough.
It occurred to me because I've been wracking my brains on how to build a wizard that has all the features I want. This interpretation is both literal and it saves me a feat, which means I can do the shtick I'm trying to build into the character without sacrificing other features I'm looking for.
I'm gonna go with it and just see what my DM says.
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I'm actually pretty proud of the build:
God of Darkness Build:
Human Conjurer, (Teleportation)
Talents: Slippery, and Vaj Jungle Guid (stealth and perception are class skills)
Opposition Schools: Necromancy & Enchantment
Bonded object = ring
1) Improved Initiative
1) Spell Focus (Conjuration)
2)
3) Augment Summoning
4)
5) Craft Wondrous , Heighten Spell
6)
7) Preferred Spell (Enervation)
8)
9) Craft Rod
10) Spell Penetration
11) Maximize Spell
12)
13) Quicken Spell
14)
15) Greater Spell penetration, Spell Perfection (Enervation)
16)
17) FEAT
18)
19) FEAT
20) Immortality
The point of this build is to keep my options open, but still pack a punch. The key here is that there are plenty of battlefield control spells that don’t offer saves. There are also plenty of AOE spells to soften up the mooks. What this build lets me do is:
1) Contribute to damage as a support caster by softening up the bad guys for my team
2) Lay down plenty battlefield control thanks to the 1 extra spell per day granted by conjuration. This may include Summoning spells, but it is not dependent on them.
3) Stay hidden most of the time. This is the big deal about the teleport ability. “poof out and hide” is a basic shtick for this build. Note that stealth is effective against both See Invisible and True Seeing effects.
4) Bonded object allows for maximum versatility. Also the fact that enervation is spontaneous cast means that you don't have to memorize it to use it, keeping spell slots open for other options.
5) Have one really good “boss blaster” spell that (again) supports my team, with enervation and give a nice ability that stays relevant late in the game.
I would have taken a familiar but we have a 7-person group, and summoning is going to bog down play enough.
At 15th level I make a medium rod of maximize and use it to maximize a quickened enervation, then I cast a maximized enervation. This gives me two rays that inflict 4 negative levels each. Then I poof out and hide, rinse and repeat.
Those last two feats go to whatever seems best at the time. Empower spell will let me add still MORE negative levels to my rays. Point blank/precise shot is an option, but it seems weak to me, Or maybe just a item creation feat and Leadership for still more item creation feats, so I can retire with a huge number of magic items.
Whatever. At that point, the campaign will have changed enough that I can just decide then. The point is that the build is solid early, and it picks up a good solid "shtick" in the middle, that scales well with level.
My DM only allows CRB and APG, otherwise there are a few more good feats to add, like Piercing Spell (+5 to overcome SR, adds up to a +10 at level 15!). If I can convince him to allow UM, then I'll tweak the build.
Hm,... Seems pretty well thought out to me.
You have a decent amount of battlefield control/assistance (summoning)/ and blaster spells, as well as all the important utility spells. You have a plan for a mid range BBEG-equalizer that will remain useful. And you have just enough create Feats to keep your group supplied with the toys you really want/need for a particular adventure.
Seems pretty good to me! :)
I luvs my wizards (one board member here pointed out that I had probably created more wizard characters than JK Rowling), ;P
And I think since your planning for the long haul it looks great.
As I rarely (read=never) get to play to high levels, I've become disillusioned with Improved Initiative, currently seeing it as a waste of a 1st level feat that could otherwise be used to provide a larger early-game punch for my spells. (Although back in the day, I would have sneered if you had suggested that I change it to something else!)
As a conjurer I think a familiar is almost a requirement, for flavor. :) But don't forget that wonderful ring allows you ANOTHER free casting of your fave spell per day, and as a bonded item can be enchanted as if you had the required feat(s) for a fraction of the price of buying/making another magical item. With the proper enchanting it can boost your spells as well.
Good luck with this, maybe drop a line back here after a while and note how it worked out in play.
You would need two slots to cast the spell, though you could still do it spontaneously. That is my opinion on the rules :-)
Consider opposition research if you want to change that.
There are also magic items that allow you to convert all spells into spells from one school.
Finally I would not specialize in enervation. You need precise shot to shoot into melee effectively, undead will love you for it, spell turning, spell immunity, cocealment, high AC, death ward etc. will make it useless fast and you will wish not to have spent many ressources on it.
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Sanglor, I thought that you needed two slots as well, but that's not actually what the rules say:
You find it very easy to cast one particular spell.
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 5 ranks, Heighten Spell.
Benefit: Choose one spell which you have the ability to cast. You can cast that spell spontaneously by sacrificing a prepared spell or spell slot of equal or higher level. You can apply any metamagic feats you possess to this spell when you cast it. This increases the minimum level of the prepared spell or spell slot you must sacrifice in order to cast it but does not affect the casting time.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a different spell.
It doesn't even specify that casters are limited in their ability to use bonus/domain spells. It looks like you can use ANY ONE SPELL, of equal or greater level.
As for choosing Enervation, I agree that it's not an ideal choice, but then what is? Here is the rundown as I see it. I would love your feedback:
You need precise shot to shoot into melee effectively: I think I can get around this in two ways. Firs as a wizard, I will be flying a lot, AND I have the shift power. I think that I can set up "clear shots" that don't provide cover pretty easily. Sure, it's harder not to shoot into melee, but that's what I have true strike for.
undead will love you for it: There is no ability in the game that doesn't have some counter to it. If I chose fireball as a preferred spell, I'd have at least as many problems.
spell turning & spell immunity, death ward: yes these will be problems, but if they are showing up in EVERY fight then the DM is being dishonest.
cocealment, high AC: Again true strike is the solution here. I can quicken it as needed with a rod or simply memorize it that way.
The reason I created this build is because I wanted something other than summoning and more summoning to do in the mid to late game. My GM only allows CRB and APG, so a lot of the more popular feats are closed to me. I'm WAY open to suggestions on how to improve this build, but it's either this or spell specialization, which costs 2 feats (instead of 3), and spontaneously casting lots and lots of summoning spells. That simply doesn't appeal to me. I'd rather memorize a couple of high level summoning spells and have a different shtick to fall back on.
So please, help me find a better shtick!
Sanglor, I thought that you needed two slots as well, but that's not actually what the rules say:
** spoiler omitted **
It doesn't even specify that casters are limited in their ability to use bonus/domain spells. It looks like you can use ANY ONE SPELL, of equal or greater level.
As for choosing Enervation, I agree that it's not an ideal choice, but then what is? Here is the rundown as I see it. I would love your feedback:
You need precise shot to shoot into melee effectively: I think I can get around this in two ways. Firs as a wizard, I will be flying a lot, AND I have the shift power. I think that I can set up "clear shots" that don't provide cover pretty easily. Sure, it's harder not to shoot into melee, but that's what I have true strike for.
undead will love you for it: There is no ability in the game that doesn't have some counter to it. If I chose fireball as a preferred spell, I'd have at least as many problems.
spell turning & spell immunity, death ward: yes these will be problems, but if they are showing up in EVERY fight then the DM is being dishonest.
cocealment, high AC: Again true strike is the solution here. I can quicken it as needed with a rod or simply memorize it that way.
The reason I created this build is because I wanted something other than summoning and more...
I know the wording is ambigous, but the "ability to cast" means to me
- when it comes from wizard -> you have to pay 2 slots- when it comes from another class, e.g. cleric -> you only pay 1 slot
And yes, that means that you can sacrficice a non-wizard spell to cast that spell from your list. Makes dipping into other classes or MT more worthwhile. In the end your DM will have to decide.
I just suggested to dodge the whole issue by taking arcane study at 9th (I believe) level to make it a non-opposition school.
By shooting into melee I meant the -4 you always have when some of your party are engaged in melee with another party. This comes in addition to cover. You will face that situation a lot, so depending on true strike is quite costly IMO.
Also, in that case I strongly recommend you take spell perfection for true strike as well as preferred spell (in addition to enervation).
Starting from a certain level onward you almost always have undead. Unlike fireball and other pure damage spells where you can alter the energies with simple lesser rods of metamagic or a feat or a class ability, enervation will simply be completely useless.
Spell turning, rings of counterspell etc. do not stop non-targeted spells, so there is a clear advantage for fireball and similar spells.
And from a certain level onward your DM would be pulling punches if your opponents DIDN'T do research and prepare counters to your standard tactics.
I'll try to give some more suggestions later, can't at the moment :-)
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Thanks for your input.
The whole point of this thread is to see if I can AVOID taking Arcane Study.
I get the whole thing with firing into melee, but a +4 AC s a +4 AC, and If I can eliminate one AC bonus it's as good as eliminating the other (though clearly not as good as eliminating both). But that's TWO more feats. So that's out.
"And from a certain level onward your DM would be pulling punches if your opponents DIDN'T do research and prepare counters to your standard tactics."
This would be true of any choice I made. It sounds like you are saying it's best to not focus too much on one thing in your build. This is a real dilemma: In order to do the really cool stuff, you need to focus your build, but this makes the build vulnerable to DM nerfing because he can just throw easy counters in your way.
Enervation is a devastating attack against a BBEG, but a BBEG is the MOST likely to be prepared with a counter of some sort. Now against a big stupid minion, this is a VERY good tactic to use. Giants and dragons would probably be a pretty good targets. Wizards not so much. Priests even less so.
I would love to have a "one size fit's all" kill-o-death trick up my sleeve, but I don't think that one exists.
The other build I was considering is to create a build that could fire off a reach plane shift, that poofs you into another plane, but that takes a touch attack AND a will save, and it comes too late in the game. It's very cool but not practical.
Finally there is the old fallback of firing off a flesh to stone spell at will. This has the cost of needing lots of Spell Focus: Transmutation in order to make the save DC high enough to overcome fortitude saves. Fortitude saves are VERY strong for all but casters, and they are the most likely to have the defenses you spoke of.
I'm trying to build a GOD mage who packs a punch, and who still has a couple of item creation feats to work with. Evocation specialization is a totally different build. I would love some better ideas, but I can't think of any.
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"Also how about having divination as an opp school in place of necromancy"
Nah, I like being able to cast see invisible and True Seeing, plus, there's always the "clairvoyance + Teleport" trick that is great for getting behind enemy lines. I have also found locate object to be surprisingly useful as well. The Divination school is my friend.
On the other hand the only Necromantic spell I usually cast is false life. Once I craft a rod of extend spell, I can make that last 24 hours, and just cast it ahead of time (with a scroll or two for backup). Necromancy is good for battlefield control ("waves of" spells) and targeted offense (ray and touch spells). I have plenty of control spells, and this build let's me cherry pick the best ray in the game. All that leaves is Horrid Wilting, but maybe I'll pick up Opposition Research at level 17.
The RAW would not allow you to avoid the 2 slots for an opposition school spell. It would have to specifically mention it in the preferred spell feat that you don't have to pay the 2 spell slot cost to not pay it. Since it does not specifically say that you don't spend 2 spell slots for casting an opposition school spell you must use 2 slots to cast your spell.
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Where does it say that?
Seriously, 3.5 had SO MUCH BETTER EDITING that Pathfinder does!
The ONLY rule I can find about the "two slot" rule is this:
From Pathfinder PRD "A wizard who prepares spells from his opposition schools must use two spell slots of that level to prepare the spell."
(emphasis mine)
I'm not preparing a spell, I'm spontaneously casting a spell.
Just putting aside your (justifiable?) moral outrage at my cheezy rules-lawyering, I think my interpretation is the only RAW interpretation.
By the way, I don't know if this is common knowledge, but this feat is ALSO a way for spontaneous casters to add metamagic to their spells without slowing down the casting time.
Thanks for your input.
The whole point of this thread is to see if I can AVOID taking Arcane Study.
I get the whole thing with firing into melee, but a +4 AC s a +4 AC, and If I can eliminate one AC bonus it's as good as eliminating the other (though clearly not as good as eliminating both). But that's TWO more feats. So that's out.
"And from a certain level onward your DM would be pulling punches if your opponents DIDN'T do research and prepare counters to your standard tactics."
This would be true of any choice I made. It sounds like you are saying it's best to not focus too much on one thing in your build. This is a real dilemma: In order to do the really cool stuff, you need to focus your build, but this makes the build vulnerable to DM nerfing because he can just throw easy counters in your way.
Enervation is a devastating attack against a BBEG, but a BBEG is the MOST likely to be prepared with a counter of some sort. Now against a big stupid minion, this is a VERY good tactic to use. Giants and dragons would probably be a pretty good targets. Wizards not so much. Priests even less so.
I would love to have a "one size fit's all" kill-o-death trick up my sleeve, but I don't think that one exists.
The other build I was considering is to create a build that could fire off a reach plane shift, that poofs you into another plane, but that takes a touch attack AND a will save, and it comes too late in the game. It's very cool but not practical.
Finally there is the old fallback of firing off a flesh to stone spell at will. This has the cost of needing lots of Spell Focus: Transmutation in order to make the save DC high enough to overcome fortitude saves. Fortitude saves are VERY strong for all but casters, and they are the most likely to have the defenses you spoke of.
I'm trying to build a GOD mage who packs a punch, and who still has a couple of item creation feats to work with. Evocation specialization is a totally different build. I would love some better ideas, but...
First, two suggestions: If you have not already considered it, look at
A) sorcerer, especially sage. It can do all the things spontaneously, and there are lots of customizations. With the sage bloodline you can even keep the Int based casting, have lots of skills etc.B) witch, fantastic for debuffing and also has the summon monster spells.
Nevertheless, enervation does not really profit from high caster level except for spell resistance checks, so I would not go the specialization route.
The heighten spell/preferred spell route also has the advantage that you can heighten your spells, meaning you can pass through globes of invulnerability.
Evervation looks good and has its advantages. However, its disadvantages that I listed would never make me consider it the only spell to build around to take out foes. Maybe I would consider making it *one* of the preferred spells - which is what I would suggest. IMO going the preferred spell route is only really worth it if you take more than one spell, i.e. take the feat several times. Then it starts paying off. For example, you might want to take enervation, fireball and dispel magic as preferred spells. If you want you can add magic missile and dimension door. Now you got a spell for groups (fireball), one for single targets (enervation), counter to spells (dispel magic), maybe a universal hit-spell (magic missile) and one to get out of bad situations (dimension door). Depending on your style you might want to get vanish instead - quickened, particularly with spell perfection, it's cheap, so you could use quickened vanish plus draw a rod plus cast a spell or start summoning. True strike is always top contender, but it's not good to make your build depend on it IMO.
Crafting rods is not so great unless you heavily depend on having many different types of rods available and you are unsure if you can purchase it. I would always rather recommend going for craft wondrous items, it's simply the best crafting feat.
Generally I think that specializing in a school is only worth it under specific circumstances. If you look at the amulet of magecraft, it's hard not being a universalist wizard: You can convert the spells of one school (chosen daily!) into any of other those spells if you make it your bonded item. So you could just prepare any number of spells of e.g. conjuration and spontaneously convert *any* of those spells into *any other* conjuration spell of that level - without any feats. This is really cool. Add in the ability of universalist to spontaneously apply metamagic feats, and you have a pretty powerful caster.
Something that does not make much sense IMO is to add spell penetration line if you want to be a "god" wizard focusing on conjuration. Conjuration has the most spells that do not have spell resistance, so for them it's mostly a waste. I realize you take it for those other spells (evocation + enervation), but really consider if this is worth burning two feat slots. Your summons won't be aided by this, and many of those control-type of spells do not really have spell resistance.
Also, if you want to go the summoning route, look at the other feats that are available to improve your summoning power further. So consider superior summoning there.
In terms of summoning, look at swarm summoning. I have the impression most people look at summon monster spells, but swarms can be really nasty, particularly for casters.
With respect to a spell to specialize in, I would suggest looking at frigid touch. There is *no save*, it does 4d6 cold damage (easily convertible with metamagic), and it staggers (!) for either 1 round or 1 *minute*. Couple this with reach spell, and you're really mean.
Sample suggestions:
elven universalist wizard
traits: magical lineage (frigid touch), reactionary
feats:
1 improved initiative, scribe scroll
3 reach spell
5 heighten spell, preferred spell (frigid touch)
7 spell focus (conjuration)
9 augment summoning
10 quicken spell
11 great fortitude
13 craft wondrous items
15 spell perfection (frigid touch)
17 spell penetration
19 ...
20 immortality
If you dump the augment summoning, you can squeeze in a lot more preferred spells, making it more flexible.
If you go for the amulet of magecraft, you can completely eschew the preferred spell route, simply memorizing enough evocation spells for the day would suffice, plus some generous stocks of pearl of power 2nd level ;-)
Your tactic would be to always prepare / convert frigid touch with reach spell, thus making it a ranged touch attack. You can use it quickened or non-quickened, change the elemental type with rods or feats. Have a couple of blasts prepared and you're good.
In case you can spare the feats consider arcane blast. It's subpar in terms of damage, but it's supernatural and allows you to attack golems and similar otherwise immune creatures - and no spell turning, counterspell etc. works on it.
OK so much for now. I hope this helps :-)
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I have to hand it to you, that is a very strong, versatile build.
Unfortunately I'm limited to CRB and APG. I'm not sure about that amulet being available either. If I could use UM, none of this would be an issue. I'd just focus on one of the acid based spells in there, and take a feat to mix up the energy type to increase playability. I like the conjurer, because of the swift Teleport ability, and the fact that I never need memorize dimension door again.
The problem is that there are no real blast spells in the school until you get to UM, so if I want Augment Summoning, I'm really wasting that Spell Focus feat. As a result, I have to find some kind of creative way to do blasting that plays to my weak save DC. Either that or convince my DM to let me take a UM spell. Who knows, maybe he'll change his mind by then. Still it's good to have a plan.
Thanks though, there are some good ideas there.