Untrained Mount & Charge

[NikTheAvatar]

Do you need to make a DC 20 ride check to charge on an untrained mount, even when you are out of melee range? I have seen folks rule that this check only needs to be made in melee range, but not in the initial charge into combat.

This is a practical question, with a PFS scenario that has NPCs riding untrained mounts, and the leader's tactics saying to Ride-By Attack with a lance and a Ride Skill of +6.

Scenario spoiler:

#2-02: Before the Dawn Pt 2: Rescue at Azlant Ridge. Given that I'm running at Tier 1-2, a one-hit kill is possible.

Combat Rules wrote:

Mounts that do not possess combat training (see the Handle Animal skill) are frightened by combat. If you don't dismount, you must make a DC 20 Ride check each round as a move action to control such a mount. If you succeed, you can perform a standard action after the move action. If you fail, the move action becomes a full-round action, and you can't do anything else until your next turn.

and repeated in...

Ride Rules wrote:

Control Mount in Battle (DC 20): As a move action, you can attempt to control a light horse, pony, heavy horse, or other mount not trained for combat riding while in battle. If you fail the Ride check, you can do nothing else in that round. You do not need to roll for horses or ponies trained for combat.

[DonDuckie]

You can't charge as standard action, so I would say no. The check is made in combat, which usually translates to "when tracking initiative". And it is the clanging of steel on steel as well as arcane fire that spooks the mount, more than just the immediate proximity to combatants.

So unless the scenario mentions different behavior from the mounts, then I wouldn't allow charging.

[NikTheAvatar]

DonDuckie wrote:

You can't charge as standard action

To nitpick, the mount is charging as part of HIS full round action. As the mount-er, you are just going along for the ride (and striking with the lance at the end of it). I think the charge is fair but the DC 20 Ride Check is in.

[DonDuckie]

This is sort of a place where the rules aren't too helpful.

But if it takes your move action to calm the thing down from useless, it should also absorb the mounts move action - so no charge. Not RAW, I know, because mounted combat isn't described too well, like when to make ride checks and when to make handle animal checks.

If it doesn't know the attack trick, is it a push action, full round DC 25 handle animal.

The strike at the end of his charge would be an attack action, not subject to charge benefits.

We can nitpick over this, but the rules are insufficient(IMO*). So the result is a coin toss.

*actually, everything I write is my opinion...