Talk me out of it: rebuilding 2 level dip into Cavalier -> 8 levels full Cleric

[Mike Bohlmann]

I originally level-dipped to be able to take an axe beak mount, but I'm starting to think that the value of such a thing isn't much at 8th level. I'm sitting on my Gen Con GM boon trying to decide what to do with it (elemental race or rebuild).

Cavalier (Order of the Star) 2 / Cleric (Milani, Liberation and Restoration) 6
Cavalier levels get +2 to attack, save, skill check, and ability check each once per day as well as an axe beak (Boon Companion) with a good chunk of hit points. The main advantage is combat mobility at this level - 50ft move - as an AC that does 1d8+7 damage is only marginally helpful.

Cleric (Milani, Liberation and Restoration) 8
The 8th level Liberation domain power is huge. A 30-foot aura that removes confused, grappled, frightened, panicked, paralyzed, pinned, and shaken. Combined with the 1st-level Restoration domain power, there aren't many negative conditions the character can't remove which was my original objective.

I felt a bit weaker than I should be in Bonekeep 2 and Waking Rune, and I think there's a lot that two more levels of Cleric would help.

Thoughts?

[David_Bross]

Dips that remove casting progression are bad. Imagine in one level you've just gotten freedom of movement, or you have that now and in one level you have breath of life. For EoTT would you like to have Heal, or will that have to wait until later? Keep in mind that its 14 prestige to rebuild without using that boon, which can be used for much larger changes, with ultimate campaign.

[Mike Bohlmann]

It would be 24 prestige for Ultimate Campaign retrain: 2 levels and 2 feats (Boon Companion and Mounted Combat). There's also a +1 longsword that is no longer proficient and full plate armor. In other words, Ultimate Campaign retraining is not well-suited to remove the level dip. ;)

I've already played and GM'd EoTT although maybe I'll get the fourth star to replay the series sometime.

[David_Bross]

Well then I'd stand by removing the dip. I think you'll find yourself a much more versatile character following the removal, with the boosted cleric powers. I personally think that a 1 level dip in diabolist is amazing for any cleric, so I'd look into that when you're rebuilding (I'd take it at 9, to get the 8th level domain powers).

Depending on how useful you've found the domain powers from restoration, I'd actually consider trying to pick up a more support oriented domain, either Heroism (Glory) or Luck, via separatist if necessary. It might not boost how you "feel" about your cleric, but I've yet to play a scenario where I haven't had a character I could bit of luck, and the Heroism subdomain just spreads the love around a bit more. There are spells which will suppress those same status conditions, and you have the spells per day now to just memorize them. If you consider diabolist you can give the imp scrolls.

[Finlanderboy]

Elemental boone. Hands down.

You may never get the option to play one.

Plus you could rebuild with prestige. I am not sure the rebuild rules, but maybe rebuilding with fighter would be cheaper. The long sword and plate mail are cheap for 8th level.

I think the spells are much more powerfull than the domain power.

So a little tweaking to make your character a touch more optimized or an elemental to play?

I would pick the elemental.

[Mimo Tomblebur]

But Mike, is the character fun? Is being an axe beak rider who he is in your mind? The eighth level will come eventually, and if you want to skip ahead, you can use GM credit. Or contrariwise, did you get seduced by the shiny mount boon and lose your original character, and you now want to restore him to what he should have been?

[Mimo Tomblebur]

Finlanderboy wrote:

I would pick the elemental.

I honestly don't get why people are so excited about the elemental races; there just doesn't seem to be much there to build off of for a character. "O, my great great grandmother was a rock" -just doesn't seem like a great character hook to me. :)

[Aaron Mayhew]

I'll be frank. I really want to meet the guy who's great great grandmother was a rock. He must have some stories.

[BigNorseWolf]

Aaron Mayhew wrote:

I'll be frank. I really want to meet the guy who's great great grandmother was a rock. He must have some stories.

I would suggest NOT insulting his mamma.

[Mike Bohlmann]

The character was a blast in 1-5 and a good chunk of 3-7. But anywhere that two or three characters were better in melee meant staying more in the back.

So I did the math, and realized I had another boon that makes using my GM rebuild on this one a bit less useful. The 24 PA plus gold to retrain two levels and two feats isn't bad. Since this is my former Shadow Lodge character who got that boon as well as boon for a Raise Dead "loan" make it a lot less risky to go into a game with only 6 PA and 7k gold.

[caubocalypse]

Separatist Cleric so you can get the Travel domain

[Mystic Lemur]

You can spend one of your newly open feats on Heavy Armor (it's a good pick for battle clerics anyway), but you may be stuck on the Longsword unless you retrain into a level that give martial weapons... But it sounds like you have enough gold left to just buy a new weapon.

[jjaamm]

Im just wondering how the wife will feel, after doing a Great painting job on the Axe beak Mini. :) With Andrew moved and you retraining there are no more Axe beaks. Was thinking we were going to get a platoon of Axe riders going.
I say play him as you feel comfy with. If not happy at present than change, but once changed your stuck.

[David_Bross]

You finished painting the mini?

Clearly that character/animal companion/ etc. is about to suffer a horrible death. Such is the fate of all after you finish spending the hours to paint em.

[Steve Shippy aka Beerwolf]

I'd say do what makes you happy, or makes Jeff more annoyed while GMing!

[jjaamm]

Steve Shippy aka Beerwolf wrote:

I'd say do what makes you happy, or makes Jeff more annoyed while GMing!

LOL, that earns you 2 extra dice :)

[Mergy]

If you have the retrain boon, don't you also have a grippli available? I thought only tier 1s got the rebuild.

[Anonymous Visitor 163 576]

Can you retrain into animal domain?

That would be cheaper, and make that axe beak fierce.

You're a mounted cleric. Run with it. For year of the Demon, that actually sounds ideal. It'll be nice to be swift against foes that can teleport.

[Mike Bohlmann]

In order to change Domains, I'd have to use the GM boon. I've decided to hang onto it for now since I was only looking to retrain 2 levels and two feats. There's other ways to get extra movement that don't involve dragging an animal companion around, so I'm going that route for now.

I had thought the rebuild boon was going to be Tier-1 only, Adam, but the race parts were the only part that varied by tier.

[Mimo Tomblebur]

As much as I appreciate the social aspects of PFS, this is a perfect example of why I still prefer character creation in point-based systems (like Hero System), that allow one to balance out their character concept in the way that works for them. I guess I got spoiled in my youth with other systems, but I still feel in my heart like the character concept should be able come first, rather than having to always bend the character concept to meet the ever expanding set of rules. Anyway, I understand it is a trade-off we have to accept for the advantage of playing in an organized play campaign, I just feel bad when people have to throw a good concept out the window because the quirks of level-based progression leave that concept too ineffective.

[Mergy]

Mike Bohlmann wrote:

In order to change Domains, I'd have to use the GM boon. I've decided to hang onto it for now since I was only looking to retrain 2 levels and two feats. There's other ways to get extra movement that don't involve dragging an animal companion around, so I'm going that route for now.

I had thought the rebuild boon was going to be Tier-1 only, Adam, but the race parts were the only part that varied by tier.

I believe that was a mistake that was corrected by the middle of Gen Con. I'll let Mike have the final word, but I am fairly certain that only Tier 1s are meant to have the rebuild.

[Michael Brock]

Only tier 1 GMs receive the rebuild boon. They get a choice of the races OR a rebuild but not both.

Tier 2-5 do not get the rebuild boon, and only qualify for the races of their tier or below.

[Mark Stratton]

Mike, I have a question.

I was a Tier 4 GM (I volunteered to run 5 slots, though 4 of them did not go off due to lack of players.) In looking at the original call for volunteers, it shows that a Tier 4 GM is one who volunteers to run at least 5 slots.

At any rate, I didn't get any sort of racial boon (as you mentioned above.). Should I have, or would that have only applied if I had actually run all 5 slots?

This was my first time running at Gen Con, so I really don't know what the answer is.

Thanks!

(And sorry to de-rail this thread.)

Mark

[Mike Bohlmann]

Michael Brock wrote:

Only tier 1 GMs receive the rebuild boon. They get a choice of the races OR a rebuild but not both.

Tier 2-5 do not get the rebuild boon, and only qualify for the races of their tier or below.

Good to know. The copy I got on Friday had the right racial rewards scratched off, but the rebuild boon was not. I'll scratch it off myself.

[Finlanderboy]

So your choice is made then