Interesting question on feinting in combat

[Zilkaiden]

This form is filled with questions on feinting, but I have one that doesn't seem to have an answer after a few hours of searching.

Feint Rules:

Feinting is a standard action. To feint, make a Bluff skill check. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + your opponent's base attack bonus + your opponent's Wisdom modifier. If your opponent is trained in Sense Motive, the DC is instead equal to 10 + your opponent's Sense Motive bonus, if higher. If successful, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn.

When feinting against a non-humanoid you take a –4 penalty. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2), you take a –8 penalty. Against a creature lacking an Intelligence score, it's impossible. Feinting in combat does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Penalty definition:

Penalties are numerical values that are subtracted from a check or statistical score. Penalties do not have a type and most penalties stack with one another.

My question relates to an event during a campaign where the rogue attempted to feint a Deinonychus which is not a humanoid and has animal intelligence. Due to the wording of feint and penalties after a quick research on feint, I determined that the total penalty he would take was a -12. [-4 for non-humanoid, -8 for intelligence]

Additionally, I'm having trouble finding out exactly what is considered humanoid for the purpose of feinting. Simple enough, anything with the humanoid type is obvious (including all the core races) but things such as monstrous humanoids, intelligent undead, or even Aasimars, Tieflings, and the elemental blooded races whose type is outsider(native).

Any information would be helpful, mostly on the first subject as that is RAW. However the second one I wish to know how you would all rule it with RAW and RAI in perspective.

[Graeme]

I think you're right on the total penalty. The way you've described it, they're penalties for different things and would stack, even if someone tried to argue otherwise. It's possible that the designers assumed that anything of animal intelligence would be non-humanoid, but I don't think that is a valid assumption - consider the various types of apes.

Personally, I would rule that humaniod is anything that looks humanoid. By RAW, humanoid is a specific type or subtype, but I think there are many non-humanoid creatures that common sense would rule as "humanoid".

RAW: Humanoid type or subtype only. Arguably monstrous humanoid, too, but that's debateable

RAI: (My opinion only) Also anything that looks humanoid. Please note that most monstrous humanoids look humanoid, but others don't (eg. Minotaur vs Lamia). I'd also rule that humanoid looking monsters without intelligence (eg. zombies and skeletons) can't be feinted.

[Weirdo]

Graeme wrote:

It's possible that the designers assumed that anything of animal intelligence would be non-humanoid, but I don't think that is a valid assumption - consider the various types of apes.

Apes are of animal type, though, so this argument only works if you assume that in this context humanoid refers to shape rather than type, and I don't think that's at all clear. Hideous Laughter gives a saving throw bonus for a different type and this seems analagous.

[mplindustries]

Zilkaiden wrote:

Due to the wording of feint and penalties after a quick research on feint, I determined that the total penalty he would take was a -12. [-4 for non-humanoid, -8 for intelligence]

Correct.

Zilkaiden wrote:

Additionally, I'm having trouble finding out exactly what is considered humanoid for the purpose of feinting.

Hint: Humanoid is a type. Anyone without the type "Humanoid" inflicts a -4 penalty.

This is rather amusing for someone like, say, a Tiefling, who would take a -4 penalty to feint other Tieflings.