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Yesterday playing with my group we came across a debate about the possibility to create a scroll using as spell source another magic item found during the daily adventure so that I, the wizard, can learn the spell so written on the scroll and add it to my spellbook.
Established that I can do the very last part of the above process, add a spell to my spellbook from a scroll:
Spells Copied from Another's Spellbook or a Scroll: A wizard can also add a spell to his book whenever he encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard's spellbook.
the following sentence in Magic Item Creation
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions.
These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).
arose some questions:
1. can I write a scroll of a spell using a wand or a stave of the same spell (wand of magic missile)?
2. can I write a scroll of a spell using another magic item that when activated gives the benefit of the same spell (Ring of Invisibility)?
3. if yes for #2, can I write a scroll of a spell using another magic item that when activated generates a custom effect of the same spell (Ring of Force Shield)?
4. can I write a scroll using another magic item that doesn't need to be activated for give to the wearer the benefits of the same spell, even if custom (Bracers of Armor)?
5. if another magic item, again having in mind the difference between the ones that need to be activated and the ones that give a passive bonus/ability, has more then one spell in the requisites needed for create it, can I write a scroll of all the spells needed for create it (Hand of Glory)?
Thank you in advance for yout replies!
Dòm
1. yes, (1 charge per day of scribing)
2. no
3. 2 was a 'no' :)
4. no, bracers of armor doesn't affect you with a spell(if that makes sense).
5. no, but with the hand you could write scrolls of daylight or see invisibility using the daily charge to craft. But you can't create a scroll of animate dead.
The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard)[...] The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells.
1. No
2. No3. No
4. No
5. No
I'd like something more than Yes/No...
So, if 1. is Yes, why I cannot write a scroll from another item that I need to activate, triggering with the act of the activation the spell, making it unavailable for casting until the next day, the same as a prepared spell?
4. if not Bracers of Armor, chose any other item that from your point of view constantly affects you with a spell, the question will be the same.
Dòm
With whale cancer's info: I'm changing 1. to 'no'.
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Magic item creation rules.
a) "In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."
i.e. you can't take +5 and craft the item even if you don't have access to the spell.
b) "The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires."
"The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)"
Combined with a) one of the scroll creators must have the spell prepared. Not simply having access to it through another magic item.
c) Scrolls maintain the difference between arcane and divine magic, all other magic items don't do that. So scribing a scroll through the use of a magic item would create problems with that too.
The bracers of armor were made by an arcane caster or they were made by a divine caster taking a +5 to the DC of crafting them?
The Whale_Cancer's info refers to the caster as the one that makes available the spell, as wrote in the Core, but in the same Core is written that:
[...]all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. [...] Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator - so are the scrolls that are magic items;
[...]access through another magic item [...] is allowed [...] - staff, wands, rings, wondrous items are all "another magic item".
Dòm
i.e. you can't take +5 and craft the item even if you don't have access to the spell.
I have access to the spell through another magic item, as written in the Core Rulebook.
"The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)"
Agree, in fact it will use a wand charge, a daily use of an activated object or inhibit the continuous effect for a while.
The bracers of armor were made by an arcane caster or they were made by a divine caster taking a +5 to the DC of crafting them?
Crafting and Spell Requirements: When crafting an item, can an arcane caster use a divine scroll to fulfill an item's divine spell requirement?
Yes. (Likewise, a divine caster could use an arcane scroll to fulfill an item's arcane spell requirement.)
However, the character has to be able to activate the scroll somehow as part of the crafting process. This probably requires the arcane caster to succeed at a Use Magic Device check to activate the divine spell. If the caster fails to cast the divine spell from the scroll, he makes no progress on the item that day unless he has another source for that divine spell (such as another copy of the scroll).
Why could not be the same if in place of the divine scroll I have a divine "another magic item"?
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The RULES wrote:
"The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)"
not Diego Rossi.
Look what it say (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.).
If that is not explicit enough for you I don't know what will convince you.
It is a specific rule trumping the general, it is under "Creating Scrolls" where the specific rules for creating scrolls are located.
(That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)
I find perfectly reasonable substitute the "spell slot" with "the charge/the daily use" is expended from "the wand/ring", just as if it had been "cast/activated" considering that access through another magic item is allowed.
Even more if as wrote here
Crafting and Bypassing Requirements: What crafting requirements can you bypass by adding +5 to the DC of your Spellcraft check?
As presented on page 549 of the Core Rulebook, there are no limitations other than (1) you have to have the item creation feat, and (2) you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites. So racial requirements, specific spell requirements, math requirements (such as "caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus"), and so on, are all subject to the +5 DC rule.
is possible to craft a wondrous item simply adding +5 to the DC even if you don't have the spell prepared/knew, even if the spell is not even in your caster spell list, like Mage Armor for a divine caster.
Dòm
Of course in my group we are still discussing about this topic and speaking with one of my mates I realized this logical thought:
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions.
These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).
Brew Potion: Can a character with this feat create a potion of any spell he knows simply by adding +5 to the DC, even without preparing it?
No. When creating potions, the crafter must prepare and expend the spell used by the potion as part of its creation. This is an exception to the normal rules that allow a caster to skip one of the prerequisites for crafting an item by adding +5 to the DC.
Crafting and Bypassing Requirements: What crafting requirements can you bypass by adding +5 to the DC of your Spellcraft check?
As presented on page 549 of the Core Rulebook, there are no limitations other than (1) you have to have the item creation feat, and (2) you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites. So racial requirements, specific spell requirements, math requirements (such as "caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus"), and so on, are all subject to the +5 DC rule.
So, out of Scrolls, which magic item still needs of the sentence although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed if the Potions need to have the spell prepared and expended as part of its creation and Magic Arms and Armors, Rings and Wondrous Items simply adding +5 to the DC for create them don't required to prepare/know/have/cast/even have te possibility to have in the caster spell list (as Mage Armor for a divine caster) the spell in the requirements?
Dòm
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So, out of Scrolls, which magic item still needs of the sentence although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed if the Potions need to have the spell prepared and expended as part of its creation and Magic Arms and Armors, Rings and Wondrous Items simply adding +5 to the DC for create them don't required to prepare/know/have/cast/even have te possibility to have in the caster spell list (as Mage Armor for a divine caster) the spell in the requirements?
The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
Potion is self explanatory, here is the definition for spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items.
Spell Completion: This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that's left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can't already cast the spell, there's a chance he'll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action (or the spell's casting time, whichever is longer) and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Note that the crafter expending the spell can be one of multiple guys that are working in collaboration and it don't need to have the crafting feat.
That mean that a wizard with scribe scroll and a cleric without it can work together to craft a scroll of a divine spell, but they must work together for the full duration of the crafting process.
Specific Rule: "The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires.
"The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)"
Please define without any possibility of doubt the word: creator.
Dòm
"The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard)."
Magic items don't -- can't -- prepare spells.
If the person with the crafting feat didn't prepare the spell, the Ring of Invisibility certainly didn't.
Again please define without any possibility of doubt the word: creator.
The creator is...
Dòm
Again please define without any possibility of doubt the word: creator.
The creator is...
NOT an item, as items can't prepare spells. The key word is not "creator," but "prepare." You need only "know" a spell to meet common spell prerequisites, but must by RAW be able to prepare it to make a scroll. Unless you're a bard or a sorcerer.
So, if you have a Ring of Invisibility that has class levels in sorcerer, you might be able to allow the Ring to "know" the spell on your behalf.
I'd like to know who a creator is, and not who is not.
Dòm
I'd like to know what a creator is, and not what he is not.
I'm sure you would. I'd like a decent French bakery within walking distance of my house.
The subject of the sentence is the key word here in my point of view, so, sorry, but I will continue to ask who is the creator without any possibility of doubt.
Dòm
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The subject of the sentence is the key word here in my point of view, so, sorry, but I will continue to ask who is the creator without any possibility of doubt.
Dòm
Creators are the characters that spend their time enchanting the item. They can be one or more characters, but they must all be present while enchanting the item for the whole process.