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Hi all!
This is my first-ever attempt at creating a new base class and throwing it to the wolves to pore over.
Before I say anything, the Slayer class is a very, very complex one. Players who enjoy playing casters and using situational, limited-use abilities will get a kick out of it. Those used to playing more straightforward martials might be scared away.
The Slayer is a full BAB, completely nonmagic class with good Reflex and Will saves. It is inspired by "carry" heroes from MOBA games (specifically DOTA 2's "Axe"), the TERA class of the same name, and pop culture characters like Van Helsing and Castlevania's Simon Belmont.
The Slayer requires a lot of bookkeeping and will be of more use in campaigns with longer combats as opposed to highly optimized rocket tag battles. My intention was to create a martial class that requires careful play and setup in battle, but has the potential to be a beast in specific situations. I also felt there was an unexplored niche in Pathfinder for characters that start off unexceptional in combat and gradually become powerful toward the end, helping to carry their team.
It will take a while to fully pore over this class and consider its balance, so I understand if it falls in the TLDR camp for some. If you do take the plunge, however:
What, if anything, entices you to play this class? What works and doesn't work for you? How would you rebalance potentially overpowered or underpowered features you find? How might this class perform in a standard optimized party? Which archetypes intrigue you based on their descriptions? Finally, is the class presented with clarity or do you find it hard to understand?
In return, I'll gladly offer commentary and constructive criticism on homebrew content of your choice if you post a link to it.
As an aspiring future freelance game content creator, your advice is very much appreciated.
Thanks in advance!
- The Red Mage
Disclaimer: This class makes reference to homebrew feats and options and lore from my group's original campaign setting. Any homebrew you don't recognize can be safely ignored when analyzing the class.
Would Death Mark work on creatures immune to fear effects such as Undead?
I don't recall if undead were immune to all mind-affecting effects, but it probably doesn't work on zombies or skeletons.
As for the fluff side, I like what's been written up. I can probably adapt this class in some form to my own campaign world.
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I'm thinking of amending one of the undead-focused Tricks of the Trade to grant the ability to remove the mind-affecting restriction from Death Mark. Just realized that's a major trap for zombie hunters and the like considering how important an active Death Mark is to some of the slayer's later features.
I'll be gone for a while but I'll respond to all feedback when I'm back.
As a wolf I hear your call! And with Paizo just announcing a Slayer to appear in the ACG next year parallel design is everywhere!!! Still this looks interesting.
* Reap fails the bag-o-rats problem, though admittedly the rats would need to be wounded by the definition, and the bag replaced by a net for ease of death sense. Just smack the bag, kill some rats and gain the suite of +2 bonuses for 1 minute/level, and attendant Frenzy at 3rd level and above. Granted the temporary hp would be negligible, but if you have more than one use a day it's a great way to start. Perhaps a minimum HD (like half the Slayer's) for this?
* You have a gazillion tricks of the trade gained every even level AND bonus feats. Seems like a lot of moving parts as you say, but ultimately it dilutes the concept for me. Many of the tricks are so situational or monster specific for me to ever consider.
* I'm not a fan of campaign specific terminology in the writeup, nor the advice on types before the class information. Put that stuff after the writeup but before the archetypes.
I think you have some interesting mechanics here but they need refining.
P.S. good job including the OGL stuff but attributing "unknown artist" is strange?
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@ Icyshadow: Amended Vampire Slayer trick to enable Death Mark on undead creatures. And good to hear there could be a place for the slayer in your world.
@ Oceanshieldwolf: Thanks for the prompt feedback!
- Solved the bag o' rats problem by limiting invigoration to average or more difficult encounters. Since some enemies are still quite challenging even with low HD, such as some fey, I felt this was a good way to go about it.
- Changed the Favored Dragon and Favored Monster tricks to be more open-ended, and I'll think of ways to make some more of the tricks less situational. In the meantime, which specifically struck you as too situational to consider?
- Moved the example packages below the crunch. However, I like the way 3.5 offered a lot of context for a base class before digging into the mechanics. I think the abilities/classes/races/etc bits will stay up top for now. My group is playtesting the class in our world so there were a lot of fluffy references to it. Made 'em setting-neutral for general peer review.
Overall there is a lot to take in. And perhaps too much for my taste.
It might ease it up a bit, if the trades were paths/styles instead.
Making you choose a package, could reduce picking around for the best single abilities.
I think they get too many special extra attacks (frenzy and counterattack).
A few specific considerations:
Good and bad saves: Why bad fortitude and good will saves for this class? Not saying it necessarily, but it seem overall more martial and physical in nature than magical or spiritual.
Reap 1: What kind of action is this? The wording suggest that it is a special standard action, allowing you to "make an attack at your highest BAB". But allowing vital strike suggest that it works on a normal attack action. Does it also work on a full attack action? Does it work on other special types of attacks, such as a coup de grace?
Reap 2: It might be an idea to limit the temporary hp granted, to the creature's current hp + con score, like vampiric touch does it. Otherwise there is a potential for very high pools of temp hp.
Death mark: You should either drop the will save or change it. Contested rolls are annoying, and skill rolls vs. saving throws aren't really fair, as the latter is going to be significantly lower.
Death mark: I think there should be a number of uses per day.
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@ HaraldKlak:
Thanks for the feedback!
I'll definitely consider rolling tricks into paths. I can see its use for simplicity's sake. I just like the idea of being able to customize a bit more, maybe broaden the types of enemies you counter, etc. I'm sure there's a happy medium to be reached.
Will have to respectfully disagree about the special attacks. A martial that has quite a few options each round rather than a hyperfocused go-to routine (a 2H fighter just full attacks, a maneuver fighter trips every round, etc) is appealing to me.
Good Will reflects their unshakable determination and fearlessness, not any sense of magic/spirituality. Bad Fort reflects their reckless disregard for their well-being. Also don't think there's a pure martial class with bad Fort and I thought it would be an interesting twist.
The wording of Reap states it is 'in place of an attack', the same as the wording for weapon-based combat maneuvers like Trip, Disarm, etc. It can be used as part of an attack or full-attack action. Pretty much anytime you would be able to Trip, you can Reap. Of course, using it during a full-attack can be risky if you down the opponent before being able to use it and so on.
I agree with the temporary HP consideration, definitely changing that.
As for Death Mark, I want a way for the enemy to have a chance to shake it off. Will think about a more elegant solution than a contested roll. I disagree about uses per day though. It's only usable on one monster at a time, has a chance of being shaken off, and is pretty core to the class.
Edit: Nerfed Reap's temporary HP bonus to be more in line with Vampiric Touch.
Not what I expected. I was expecting either a "Buffy" or a "Kinslayer", but seems you've done one better and made it applicable to a large number of concepts.
I like the concept and have to agree with the above posters who mentioned rolling in the specific related tricks into some sort of path mechanic and sort them by "path" so one can see all related tricks.
Also, thanks for the chuckle - I couldn't help myself when I saw the trick title "Lucky Charms". I always picture that damn leprechaun.=)
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Haha, thanks Da'ath. I can't help but slip pop culture references into my stuff every now and then.
When I first conceptualized the class I knew making it open-ended was a priority. To me, a slayer uses the tricks he's picked up thwacking his nemeses and learns to apply them to all areas of combat, as opposed to the ranger, who gets really good at grinding specific monster types into a paste.
Harald and Wolf made good points about the Tricks and I'm currently working on such a path mechanic. I'm also paring down the list of bonus feats to be more tightly focused.
Will have to respectfully disagree about the special attacks. A martial that has quite a few options each round rather than a hyperfocused go-to routine (a 2H fighter just full attacks, a maneuver fighter trips every round, etc) is appealing to me.
Just to clarify, the short part i wrote. I definately don't mind the different special attacks. Options apart from the full-attack routine is important in making a martial character fun.
What I am a bit cautious about, is the extra attacks from frenzy and counterattack. Normally the means to getting extra attacks are few, and the common ones don't stack with eachother.As a full BAB class, the slayer is already on par with the others in getting additional attacks. With two extra on at lvl 6, the 2-handed slayer is making 4 attacks compared to the 2 attacks of a similar fighter.
Additionally the immidiate action of frenzy clashes a bit with death mark being a swift action. While it promotes playing the class intelligently, weighing your options, it risk leaving the player with the feeling that he cannot utilize his abilities.
A few extra comments:
Wild Invigoration: Does it reset during invigoration? It is bound to come up, so it might as well be clarified. Whether it does or not, this seem like a trick I'd want for any slayer I play.
Elephant Bow: This seems very strong. While I like the attempt to make the double crossbow anything more than a fun entry in the weapons table, the consequence of this, is that the slayer is making two shots for every single one.
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@Harald: Considered your next suggestions and I agree with a lot of it. I do think Frenzy and Counterattack are situational and require some setup, but I agreed they needed to be toned down.
Updates:
- Bonus feats pared down significantly
- Tricks rolled into a new mechanic called Origins, some were tweaked, and alignment-based Tricks removed until I can work them in better. In addition, Tricks are now gained at a slower rate.
- Frenzy and Counterattack toned down by imposing a few more limits
- Circle of Death, Death Instinct and Your Worst Enemy are gained a level earlier
- Various other minor changes
I'll be posted the first of the archetypes soon (magehunter). Let me know what you guys think!
- TRM
I'll give it a second look after work.
Should probably also mark it on my campaign notes.