Example:
Emergency Force Sphere
The 5 foot radius allows you to fit another medium creature in any of the 4 cardinal directions away from you. Would they get a save to not get trapped? The spell does not state that. Also Arcane Archer abuse, imbue arrow emergency force sphere and shoot the square they are standing in. AC 5, impossible to miss, bam they have a sphere around them. Do they get a save?
Another example:
Wall of Stone
This one provides a reflex save when you use it to trap someone under or within the wall itself, but what about if you form the wall around their square? What about two squares away? When do they not get a reflex save anymore?
Maezer wrote: It functions as wall of force. Thus if upon casting if its surface is broken by any object or creature the spell fails. This does not answer or clarify any of the questions. The 5 foot radius is large enough to fit another medium creature in it, and arcane archer negates that issue entirely with imbue arrow.
No, there's no save to not be within the emergency force sphere when you cast it.
In the case of wall of stone, you're misreading it. When it says "within or under a wall of stone", it doesn't mean you're actually somehow shrinking them to fit inside the stone itself; that's already covered by saying that "[t]he wall cannot be conjured so that it occupies the same space as a creature or another object." It's talking about exactly what you've described: trying to trap them by walling them in. They get a Reflex save.
Oladon wrote: No, there's no save to not be within the emergency force sphere when you cast it.
In the case of wall of stone, you're misreading it. When it says "within or under a wall of stone", it doesn't mean you're actually somehow shrinking them to fit inside the stone itself; that's already covered by saying that "[t]he wall cannot be conjured so that it occupies the same space as a creature or another object." It's talking about exactly what you've described: trying to trap them by walling them in. They get a Reflex save.
I was not implying they are being shrinked to fit into the wall of stone. I am implying that the wall of stone would be shaped around them (not their square(s), them) trapping them in a suit of stone that is part of the wall. That's what I got from reading the description, if it's actually a save they get if you trap them inside it, it's easily cheeseable to make a long stone corridor with an opening at the other end to "trap them" inside it, aka waste their time and burn precious actions.
That's gamey and bad, you should just not get a save if you can contrive a situation that avoids the rules.
How about another situation: 5 wizards. They all create this ridiculous corridor of stone and make it as long as possible casting 10 walls of stone in a round using quickened spells. The final casting at the end of the corridor closes off the wall, but this portion of the wall is created after all the other stone walls are already up. Would the person inside suddenly get to leap 400+ feet for their reflex save?
You seem kindof desperate.
How about you rule it (if you're the DM, otherwise trust your DM to rule it) using common sense instead of being silly and wasting people's time?
I'm using extremes to prod holes in the argument. I don't see how that is desperation. It just seems foolish because why would they get a save if you trap them with all four walls around, but they don't get a save if you put a wall in front of them to jump ahead of it? This is not an unreasonable situation at all, but by the spells description you are not trapping them so they don't get a save.
Your implication that you should just use common sense is foolish, why have rules at all if we can just use common sense?
Edit: Wasting your time? Perhaps you should use your time more effectively and not reply to posts that waste your time. Your actions are not my responsibility.
So houserule what you don't like, or go post in the Suggestions/House Rules forum with "hey guys, I think this spell should work like this".
The way the spell works isn't unclear at all, nor are you (that I can see) actually asking a question about the rules.
Oladon wrote: So houserule what you don't like, or go post in the Suggestions/House Rules forum with "hey guys, I think this spell should work like this".
The way the spell works isn't unclear at all, nor are you (that I can see) actually asking a question about the rules.
Asking a question about how a spell works is rules.
My question was asked initially because there is a lack of consistency in spells that traps targets, some give saves, some do not. I was curious as to if there was an overarching rule that gives a save when you are trapped. Some are not meant to be used to trap targets but you can use them to do so anyway (EFS).
The conversation of course moved away from this question to challenging your answers because they lack consistency, it's what you do in a conversation. It evolves and changes, unless you are implying that the rules section is akin to a help center where you ask questions and people read from a sheet giving you useless or incomplete answers.
Sorry if I was incorrect in my assumption, I thought real people visited this section.
yumad wrote: Example:
Emergency Force Sphere
The 5 foot radius allows you to fit another medium creature in any of the 4 cardinal directions away from you.
Refer to the magic chapter charts on radius of spells.
Normally a spell needs to target a grid intersection. But in this case it is centered on you, which can be presumed to be the center of the grid square you occupy. Using the image as a reference then we see that such a radius would intersect all 8 surrounding squares, but would not entirely contain any of them (in practice less than half of the total area of each square is contained) - so you cannot include other creatures in the sphere unless they have some means of occupying your own square (very small creatures for example). And if there is a creature adjacent to you it is then intersecting the sphere and actually causes the spell to fail.
Given the spell was written as a defensive measure the RAI of it probably should not allow its use to trap even a small creature in the sphere with you that doesn't want to be trapped. RAW this is technically allowed though with no save as indicated.
bbangerter wrote: yumad wrote: Example:
Emergency Force Sphere
The 5 foot radius allows you to fit another medium creature in any of the 4 cardinal directions away from you.
Refer to the magic chapter charts on radius of spells.
Normally a spell needs to target a grid intersection. But in this case it is centered on you, which can be presumed to be the center of the grid square you occupy. Using the image as a reference then we see that such a radius would intersect all 8 surrounding squares, but would not entirely contain any of them (in practice less than half of the total area of each square is contained) - so you cannot include other creatures in the sphere unless they have some means of occupying your own square (very small creatures for example). And if there is a creature adjacent to you it is then intersecting the sphere and actually causes the spell to fail.
Given the spell was written as a defensive measure the RAI of it probably should not allow its use to trap even a small creature in the sphere with you that doesn't want to be trapped. RAW this is technically allowed though with no save as indicated. That's what I get for not looking up spell radii. That certainly prevents trapping creatures within it with standard use, but I assume arcane archer still gets a pass with imbue arrow.
The purpose of the topic wasn't really to find out if you could chesee with EFS anyway, it was just an example spell that didn't have a save but could be used to trap something.
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