Alright, so I've been playing Pathfinder for a while, and I've collected a whole bunch of rule interaction that doesn't make much sense in certain situations. So my question is how would you guys rule the following situations if it came up during play?
Does an Oracle with sidestep secret lose dodge AC and reflex when suffering from dex damage?
Does an orc with orc ferocity get knocked unconscious if their current health is below their nonlethal damage taken? Do they get knocked unconscious if their health is below 0 nonlethal damage?
If you ready an action to lunge and attack, and you lunge on your opponent's turn, when does the lunge 5ft range increase end?
Can you use reposition combat maneuver to essentially position your allies to more strategic locations? What about drag? Bull rush? Does the movement provoke AoO?
If someone provokes AoO, and they use an action (such as trip) that provokes an AoO, does that AoO provoke an AoO?
If person A readies an action to 5 foot step away from person B on approach, and person B (with Step Up) 5 foot steps closer to person A, does person B gain an additional 5 foot step upon triggering person A's readied action?
Feel free to add your own weird rule interactions and see how others would rule it!
I'll start us off
Does an Oracle with sidestep secret lose dodge AC and reflex when suffering from dex damage?
I would rule it as no, even though dex damage applies a penalty rather than change a stat.
Does an orc with orc ferocity get knocked unconscious if their current health is below their nonlethal damage taken? Do they get knocked unconscious if their health is below 0 nonlethal damage?
Orcs's ferocity's intention seems to be to be able to continue fighting even when damage would've caused them to fall unconscious. So I say that they should still be able to fight.
If you ready an action to lunge and attack, and you lunge on your opponent's turn, when does the lunge 5ft range increase end?
Seems like lunge is treated as an offensive feat rather than a defensive one, so I'll have to say that the lunge increase ends after you take your readied action.
Can you use reposition combat maneuver to essentially position your allies to more strategic locations? What about drag? Bull rush? Does the movement provoke AoO?
Can you designate an ally as a foe for your turn? Can the "foe" let him automatically succeed? This happened to me once as a GM and I let my players do it (unconscious guy was next to 4 burning skeletons). I'd probably not let my players do it if they start cheesing it.
If someone provokes AoO, and they use an action (such as trip) that provokes an AoO, does that AoO provoke an AoO?
I'll admit I put this in here because I heard that an AoO doesn't provoke an AoO but never found the ruling. So I go with no, an AoO doesn't provoke an AoO.
If person A readies an action to 5 foot step away from person B on approach, and person B (with Step Up) 5 foot steps closer to person A, does person B gain an additional 5 foot step upon triggering person A's readied action?
Rule says you can never take more than one 5-foot step a round, and nothing in step up says you can do otherwise. But step up seems to implies it takes the 5 foot step action of your next round, so I'll allow it.
do you want it from a "this is what I think is the rule" or a "this is how I'd house rule it"?
Because if it's the first, then:
1. Yes, penalty is applied because the penalty is not bound to the score at all. Dex damage penalties are applied even to a flat-footed or helpless creature.
2. Nope, falls unconscious. They are tracked separately. It's a really weird rule though.
3. Unsure.
4. Yes. Nothing says you cannot attack your ally. You still have to hit the CMD though.
5. Yes. It provokes as normal.
6. No, one 5ft step per round. Also, you cannot ready a 5ft step (you can only ready actions and 5ft step is not an action)
If it's the second:
1. No, because dex damage should only affect dex-based stuff. We don't use the new ability score damage system anyway because we find it harder to use.
2. Yes, because the ability is at best marginal and at worst nonfunctioning (if one interprets having taken no nonlethal damage as having 0 nonlethal damage) otherwise.
3. We simply use lunge as an on-off switch that's applied on a round per round basis and lasts for the whole round.
4. Yes, and the ally can chose to not resist in which case str and dex bonus to CMD are ignored.
5. Yes. It provokes as normal.
6. Unsure, hasn't come up, would have to check with my group if it happened. We allow readying of 5ft steps.
Orc Ferocity (and other effects that keep a person conscious in the negatives), by RAW, have no effect upon the unconsciousness caused by non-lethal damage. With that said, I have debated house-ruling it otherwise.
Lunge ends when your turn ends. In the case of a readied action that is when your readied action ends since that is the end of your turn.
Regarding friend or foe, unfortunately, there are not any rules to define this so I just go with who is defined as a friend or foe is entirely up to the person performing an action. It is mutable. However, I would not let them automatically succeed a check against a foe. But, the "foe" being unconscious is another matter. Hard to fail that check. :)
Regarding AoOs: Yes, AoO's provoke AoOs and can become a string of them. There are no rules to provide an exception to this.
Finally, regarding Step Up and readied actions: Readied actions go off before the action that precipitated them. So, in your example, A was never adjacent to B in order for B to be able to use Step Up.
(Note: this assumes you are readying an actual action, which a 5' step isn't. The action can be anything really that also allows you to take a 5' step.)
Sequence:
A and B start 10' apart.
B announces the 5' step.
A's readied action goes off and he steps 5' away. A is now 15' away from B.
B performs his 5' step. He is now 10' away from A.
Since they were never adjacent Step Up never comes into play.
- Gauss
Sequence:
A and B start 10' apart.
B announces the 5' step.
A's readied action goes off and he steps 5' away. A is now 15' away from B.
B performs his 5' step. He is now 10' away from A.Since they were never adjacent Step Up never comes into play.
- Gauss
I think that would depend on how you define on approach in this case :P.
Anyways, thanks for the AoO clarification. I guess the person that told me was wrong.
Gordon Pang, it really doesn't depend on approach. The way readied actions work is they occur before the action that triggered them. So either the trigger is reacting to A moving towards B or it is not reacting to A moving towards B.
A and B start 10 feet apart.
A: 5' step towards B.
B: Before A 5' steps B's readied action goes off and B 5' steps away.
Distance prior to B's 5' step is 10'. Distance after B's 5' step is 15'.
A: completes the 5' step and is now 10' away from B.
Summary: At no point was A adjacent to B. He started 10' away, B moved to 15' away, and then A moved to 10' away again.
The situation you outlined cannot occur without house ruling it.
- Gauss
What gordon is pointing at, if i understand correctly, is that "on approach" can mean "when the person actually gets adjacent to you" rather than "when the person takes an action that will get them adjacent to you".
Readied actions aren't as simple as occuring before the action that triggered them - in that case readying vs a charge would be completely pointless (as the attack happens before the charge, at which point the charger is nearly always out of reach).
Readied actions are kind of a big gray area.
On approach does not mean 'after approached'. It means 'when someone approaches'. Thus, when they approach, you step away. Since you are stepping away BEFORE they approach then they never get close enough to use Step Up.
Regarding readying vs a charge, it is not the declaration or even the start of the charge you are readying against. You are readying against a charging opponent within reach of you. Although even in that case there is a bit of a logic loop but that is a discussion for another time.
However, just to get back on track, lets say that the readied action is: 'when attacked'.
Now we have a situation where:
A: 5' steps to B.
A: attacks B.
B: Readied action goes off and 5' steps backwards.
Now the question is (once again): Can you use Step Up after already having 5' stepped during your turn?
Answer: Yes
Why? Because you burn your next round's 5' step. Not this round's 5' step.
Benefit: Whenever an adjacent foe attempts to take a 5-foot step away from you, you may also make a 5-foot step as an immediate action so long as you end up adjacent to the foe that triggered this ability. If you take this step, you cannot take a 5-foot step during your next turn. If you take an action to move during your next turn, subtract 5 feet from your total movement.
Of course, the assumption is that this is on the opponents turn and not your own but the feat is burning your next turns 5' step and not your current turns 5' step. Thus, while RAW this may not be RAI.
- Gauss