Sunder at range?

[Tinalles]

Does Sunder only work in melee combat? If so, is there any kind of ranged option anywhere?

Background: I'm GM'ing The Harrowing at the moment, and yesterday my players fought the following opponent:

Spoiler:

The Barrow King, in the Demon Fens. He's a wight with levels in fighter, and no spellcasting.

The party is level 9. As written, this opponent has:

- exactly 1 masterwork throwing axe
- no other ranged weapon
- no ability to fly
- no minions
- almost no cover
- no place to retreat

Rather predictably, the party elected to cast Fly on the party archer (ranger), and let him turn the opponent into a pin cushion.

The opponent therefore developed a pressing need to shut down the archer at range. I really wanted to try and sunder the archer's bow with the masterwork throwing axe. But I wasn't sure if I could.

The phrasing in the rule book says you can make sunder attempts "in place of a melee attack", not that it is a melee a attack. If that archer had been standing next to the opponent, the opponent would totally have been melee attacking him. So, in place of that, can the opponent throw the axe at his bow?

In play I finally decided it wouldn't work. The opponent just threw his one throwing axe at the ranger, and then got riddled with arrows.

[Nefreet]

In the CRB somewhere it mentions that sunder attempts at range deal half damage, before applying Hardness.

[DM_Blake]

"in place of a melee attack" means you are substituting a similar kind of attack (melee sunder) for the melee attack you are giving up. Had the authors intended ranged sunder attempts, they would have simply said "In place of any attack". The "melee" is a restriction on what action you give up AND what action your sunder is.

I doubt it would have worked. I would guess that an "archer" probably has at least a +2 bow by 9th level. That means it would have hardness 9 and 25 HP. So if the monster could do 22 points of damage in one attack with his MW throwing axe, he would have damaged the archer's bow (-2 to hit and damage rolls) which wouldn't have stopped the archer from killing him. He would have needed to do 34 HP damage in one hit with just a MW throwing axe to destroy the archer's bow.

Doesn't seem very likely to have succeeded.

[Tinalles]

Thanks! It's only a +1 bow (party is a little under-geared).

It would likely have been a futile gesture anyway -- the archer has two spare bows in his efficient quiver. He's already had one bow sundered, and another hit with Warp Wood, and a third which suffered an unfortunate exposure to fire. It seems that monsters don't like it when you shoot them.

[KainPen]

Nefreet wrote:

In the CRB somewhere it mentions that sunder attempts at range deal half damage, before applying Hardness.

there was a feat that did that in 3.5, Do think i remember seeing any ablity in a archtype that let you sunder at range with the same effect. I just don't remeber where I saw it.

[Nefreet]

I don't have the Core with me, and I'm at work, but I'm pretty sure it's listed in the "Damaging Objects" section in the "Additional Rules" chapter, or some such.

I could totally be wrong, too.

[KainPen]

Nefreet wrote:

I don't have the Core with me, and I'm at work, but I'm pretty sure it's listed in the "Damaging Objects" section in the "Additional Rules" chapter, or some such.

I could totally be wrong, too.

that is the section it is in. But under sunder it says melee attack only. I am not sure how else you would damage a object with out trying to break or sunder. but that is the way it is written. Like I said there was a feat or archtype that did let you do it with ranged weapon. Maybe if the item is unattended you can just attempt to damage it with ranaged weapon and that why that rule is in there.