looking around a hard corner

[FLite]

I have had a couple times lately when I have been in game with a corridor that ends in a 90 degree turn and then continues. When I say I'm looking around the corner, I get asked which square I am in. If I am in the square before the corner, I am told I can't see anything, it is a hard corner. If I am standing in the square past the corner, everything in the hallway gets line of sight to me and I get no cover bonus to AC.(and usually a free surprise round, because I wasn't aware of them, but they were aware of me because I stepped around the corner.)

Is there a way to say "I'm standing in this square but carefully sticking my head into this square to see whats in the room while still being in cover?" Or am I just dealing with bad GMing?

Also, how does "They heard you open the front door two rooms ago" constitute "they are aware of you" when you come around the corner, but "you have been searching the whole building for them" not constitute "you are not aware of them till they attack" when you come around the corner. (Note that they were not in concealment, they were just standing in the corridor.)

[Chemlak]

Bad GMing. If you are standing in the square before the corner, you can still target foes with a ranged weapon that are down the corridor. It'd be quite hard for anyone to justify that you don't have line of sight to them, if the rules explicitly say "they have cover" but can still shoot them with a bow.

[FLite]

It occurs to me in retrospect that he not only gave all 4 of them a suprise round to attack me, but he gave them all full attacks too. (At least I assume that is why he was rolling 2 d20s for each attacker. He only bothered asking about the top die each, and none of them hit me. But both earlier times that night that we got surprised, the attackers got full attack rounds.)

[Thanis Kartaleon]

Yeah, the section on Cover (page 195) explains this quite clearly. You can also refer to page 178 for the Surprise Round, and page 102 for Perception.

[Quantum Steve]

FLite wrote:

Also, how does "They heard you open the front door two rooms ago" constitute "they are aware of you" when you come around the corner, but "you have been searching the whole building for them" not constitute "you are not aware of them till they attack" when you come around the corner. (Note that they were not in concealment, they were just standing in the corridor.)

They're aware of you because they made their perception checks. The GM should have asked you for perception checks (or made them for you) as you came around the corner, if you failed it, you're unaware and cannot act in the surprise round.

[Paulicus]

I didn't realize this until reading the combat section a few months back. Ranged attacks use only one corner of your square to determine cover to others. Good to know.

[Dawn Reed-Burton]

A good piece of equip. to have is a mirror to help look around those corners. Just make sure the one who is using the mirror has darkvision.:)

[FLite]

Don't forget that you take a perception penalty looking around a corner using the mirror. I have a high AC, and medium-low perception, I'd rather take the cover bonus than the perception penalty. And if I get my head blown off because I made the wrong call, that is still better than getting the whole party killed because I led them into an ambush.

(Of course letting someone with a high AC & high perception scout is even better, but there was a cliff involved, and I was the one with spider climb :))

[JHFizban]

I don't see any mention of specific rules for regular mirrors. The APG has a Periscope item that gives a big bonus to Stealth along with a moderate penalty to Perception when using it to look around corners, provided you keep all but the periscope itself behind total cover. But that is the only reference I'm aware of to this sort of thing.

APG wrote:

Periscope: This 2-foot-long metal tube has right angles at each end with mirrors inside; if you look in one end, you can see out the other end, allowing you safely peer over obstacles, around corners, or into small spaces your head wouldn't fit. When using a periscope, the end of the tube counts as a Diminutive object, making it much less likely an observed creature notices you; if you have total concealment from the creature except for the end of the periscope, use the tube's Diminutive size modifier for your Stealth instead of your own size modifier. Distortion from the mirrors gives you a –4 penalty on Perception checks while looking through the periscope. Though the tube is fairly sturdy (hardness 5, 2 hit points), the mirrors inside are fragile (hardness 1, 1 hit point), and any damage that gets through the tube's hardness applies to the tube and the mirrors.

[FLite]

Given that there are no rules other ruler for mirrors (that I could find), and given the rules for periscope, and just given common sense, there has to be *at least* a -1 if not -2 for using an ordinary mirror on a stick. Possibly more.

[FLite]

I suppose, given the model of masterwork items, you could have a mithral / masterwork mirror that would have no penalties.

[Diego Rossi]

I suppose those are glass mirrors, I doubt that a periscope made with two silver reflective surface will only give a -4 to Perception. So making one in mithral is a bit questionable. A masterwork one is possible.

In the situation depicted in the first post I would have the made a perception (NPC) vs stealth (character peeking) check to see if the character was noticed.
Even if the party was extremely noisy walking down the corridor the waiting NPC didn't know when they would pass the corner. It was possible to miss them.
Same thing for the PC peeking, even if the NPC were in the open a perception check (DC 0 + distance [Notice a visible creature 0]) would have been appropriate to reflect the time needed for him to scan the area.
It was possible even if improbable for him to be jumped while surprised.

[Malovec]

FLite wrote:

I suppose, given the model of masterwork items, you could have a mithral / masterwork mirror that would have no penalties.

No, given that there is no rules literally at all for using a mirror, and by true common sense it is just a reflection and troops and military personal alike have been using it in warfare for centuries, I'm going out on a limb, pun intended that you can use a mirror on a stick just fine with zero penalty.

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