I have a guy that's making a Gnome Sorcerer for the upcoming game, as he wants a Charisma heavy (for skills of Bluff/Diplomacy) to be the group's "face" character, and wants to focus on Illusion spells...
He's proposed the following, just wanted to get a feel from you guys if you think it's "fair".
He wants to be limited to ONLY Universal and Illusion spells. Not be able to access any other spells at all. But... he wants the full spell list (Ie: all Illusion spells are "Learned", rather than the short-list that a Sorcerer would normally have). I've perused the Illusion spells and don't see anything broken with the idea, but I'm still somewhat new to GMing this game, and have never taken a PF game to higher levels.
Is this a bad idea? We're calling it an Archetype: Illusionist.
I probably wouldn't allow it at my table. It sounds a bit too much like cherry picking to me.
I agree that having no access to the other schools of magic while only having access to all illusion and universal spells isn't a good trade off. Not for you, not for them.
For one thing, how do you handle additional illusion or universal spells that come out in other Pathfinder supliments? What about crafting his own spells?
Not every spell level is created equally either. Some levels a caster gets a dozen spells of a particular school, while other levels they may only get two or three. Lets look at just the core rule book and see how many spells we are talking about and at what level of spell we see a spike of spells known.
Spells Known/Spells Available
0-level: 9/3 (6 fewer)
1-level: 5/5
2-level: 5/8 (3 more)
3-level: 4/4
4-level: 4/6 (2 more)
5-level: 4/8 (4 more)
6-level: 3/5 (2 more)
7-level: 3/5 (2 more)
8-level: 3/3
9-level: 3/3
The character could take the Expanded Arcana feat at 5th, 7th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th level in order to gain the 13 additional spells known necessary to know every single illusionist and universal spell in the core handbook, leaving them their 1st, 3rd, and 9th level feats for other things. Alternatively, if the sorcerer bloodline grants a bonus illusion spell for each spell level they can cast, you could delay or offset the spells to eat up 9 of those 13 additional spells, meaning they would only have to take Expanded Arcana twice, instead of seven times.
Might also suggest this variant of the Arcane Bloodline for sorcerers I just threw together.
Illusionist Bloodline (Modified Arcane Bloodline)
Enjoyable flavor text goes here.
Class Skill: Diplomacy.
Bonus Spells: These 9 additional spells known can be used to eat up 9 of the 13 additional spells required to know all core illusion and universal spells. These spells should be added to the sorcerer's spell list at 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th level.
Bonus Feats: Combat Casting, Deceitful, Iron Will, Persuasive, Skill Focus (Bluff), Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Skill Focus (Intimidate), Spell Focus.
Bloodline Arcana: As Extended Illusions class feature of the wizard Illusion School.
Bloodline Powers: Replace Metamagic Adept with Blinding Ray class feature of the wizard Illusion School, New Arcana further reduces the need to take Expanded Arcana by one time, School Power affects illusion spells, and Arcane Apotheosis is replaced by the level 20 ability of Extended Illusions and the addition of Invisibility Field for a number of minutes (instead of rounds) per day equal to your sorcerer level.
I suggest your illusionist player also adds detect magic and read magic to their cantrips known. Five cantrips, while less then nine, is still greater than three. Also, the leftover cantrip slots should not be used to "buy" illusion spells at later levels. Instead, you might add non-core illusion cantrips (including those from other classes) as I do not believe that will break the character in the long run.
Using the above, it is possible for your sorcerer to maximize their illusionocity and charismatasticness, but they don't get access to every illusion/universal spell all at once. Instead, they have to slowly add to their list of spells known just like everyone else. It is doable and, gods willing, it might not just break your game. Hopefully this helps in your struggle to please your player while keeping your game mostly in balance.
Cheers.
I have a guy that's making a Gnome Sorcerer for the upcoming game, as he wants a Charisma heavy (for skills of Bluff/Diplomacy) to be the group's "face" character, and wants to focus on Illusion spells...
He's proposed the following, just wanted to get a feel from you guys if you think it's "fair".
He wants to be limited to ONLY Universal and Illusion spells. Not be able to access any other spells at all. But... he wants the full spell list (Ie: all Illusion spells are "Learned", rather than the short-list that a Sorcerer would normally have). I've perused the Illusion spells and don't see anything broken with the idea, but I'm still somewhat new to GMing this game, and have never taken a PF game to higher levels.
Is this a bad idea? We're calling it an Archetype: Illusionist.
It's a huge nerf for him. A normal sorcerer will get all the illusion spells anyways. His advantage is getting all the spells sooner.
Now, make sure the other spells are not on his list, therefore no wand or scroll use without UMD.
Also axe bloodline spells.
I have a guy that's making a Gnome Sorcerer for the upcoming game, as he wants a Charisma heavy (for skills of Bluff/Diplomacy) to be the group's "face" character, and wants to focus on Illusion spells...
He's proposed the following, just wanted to get a feel from you guys if you think it's "fair".
He wants to be limited to ONLY Universal and Illusion spells. Not be able to access any other spells at all. But... he wants the full spell list (Ie: all Illusion spells are "Learned", rather than the short-list that a Sorcerer would normally have). I've perused the Illusion spells and don't see anything broken with the idea, but I'm still somewhat new to GMing this game, and have never taken a PF game to higher levels.
Is this a bad idea? We're calling it an Archetype: Illusionist.
Far and away the easiest, most elegant fix for this and the least potentially unbalancing is to allow his gnome to take the human favored class bonus for Sorcerers instead of the Gnomish option. This will grant him additional known spells without allowing him immediate access to every illusion spell of a new level which could be potentially unbalancing. He may end up thanking you for allowing him to take the occasional enchantment or conjuration spell before its all said and done.
Once you've met him halfway with that allowance, its up to him, using the Arcane Bloodline via Eldritch Heritage feats or the Expanded Arcana feats to increase his spell list further.
I have a guy that's making a Gnome Sorcerer for the upcoming game, as he wants a Charisma heavy (for skills of Bluff/Diplomacy) to be the group's "face" character, and wants to focus on Illusion spells...
He's proposed the following, just wanted to get a feel from you guys if you think it's "fair".
He wants to be limited to ONLY Universal and Illusion spells. Not be able to access any other spells at all. But... he wants the full spell list (Ie: all Illusion spells are "Learned", rather than the short-list that a Sorcerer would normally have). I've perused the Illusion spells and don't see anything broken with the idea, but I'm still somewhat new to GMing this game, and have never taken a PF game to higher levels.
Is this a bad idea? We're calling it an Archetype: Illusionist.
Far and away the easiest, most elegant fix for this and the least potentially unbalancing is to allow his gnome to take the human favored class bonus for Sorcerers instead of the Gnomish option. This will grant him additional known spells without allowing him immediate access to every illusion spell of a new level which could be potentially unbalancing. He may end up thanking you for allowing him to take the occasional enchantment or conjuration spell before its all said and done.
Once you've met him halfway with that allowance, its up to him, using the Arcane Bloodline via Eldritch Heritage feats or the Expanded Arcana feats to increase his spell list further.
That is a much easier fix, given you only need to add 13 spells for all illusion/universal spells, but this would also allow him to add spells from other schools as well as other books.
I hope he has fun with his imagination manifest.
Ok, sorry for the huge delay on replying, been busy with him working out some ideas. I agree about a bloodline, as I wasn't crazy about a Sorcerer Archetype... That being said, one of our biggest bumps was the bloodline type itself. Illusions (even a Shadow Simulacrum) are undoubtedly difficult at best, to procreate with, so obviously we weren't going with a bloodline of "Illusions".
The obvious choice was Fey, but that's taken, and a very different thing indeed. We finally settled upon a Racial Bloodline for Gnomes, making it a race-only Bloodline (Similarly to Sylphs).
We agreed with a Class Skill of Diplomacy. However, we bumped heads on spells at first. I was pretty set on it being spells like Minor/Major Image. Pretty much all the (figment) illusion spells. He, on the other hand, wanted those spells as soon as they are available (1 level earlier), and pretty much agreed to agree with any choice for the free spells that weren't the spells he wanted most. (Apparently, and Interestingly, having perused the Sorcerer spell lists for other Archetypes, this is pretty much how they do things too).
So, our spell list:
- 3 - Disguise Self
- 5 - Invisibility
- 7 -Displacement
- 9 - Shadow Conjuration
- 11 - Mirage Arcana
- 13 - Programmed Illusion
- 15 - Invisibility, Mass
- 17 - Screen
- 19 - Weird
Next up was our Feats. We pre-agreed on 8 Feats, based on how other Bloodlines are setup, with at least 1 Skill Focus, which he wanted as Diplomacy and I wanted as Bluff because he already gets a +3 on Diplomacy for it having become a Class Skill. Here was our final result of Bonus Feats:
- Combat Casting
- Deceitful
- Dodge
- Eschew Materials
- Persuasive
- Spell Focus (Illusion)
- Skill Focus (Bluff)
- Widen Spell
Bloodline Arcana, I suggested +1 DC for Illusion (Figment) spells, he agreed without comment.
Then the Bloodline Powers which we still haven't completely agreed on yet. He was pretty set on the 1st level one being that any time he casts an Illusion (Figment) spell, he could use Stealth as if he had Concealment, even if there was no concealment. I saw no harm in that, and allowed it.
I followed up by suggesting that the 3rd level one boost his Diplomacy/Bluff rolls to convince/trick people by 1/2 his level any time he casts an Illusion (Figment) spell. He thought it was a good idea.
9th Level we agreed after much discussion to set as using Minor Image as a Spell-like Ability once a day, +1 time per day every other level for a max of 6x a day at level 19. Additionally, at 11th level, it would be a Major Image instead of Minor Image.
15th and 20th are completely un-decided, though we've thrown out a hundred ideas at each other. I think we'll likely just wait until it matters to decide those 2. :/ Though... I wouldn't object to more ideas. Just don't want to copy the Wizard Illusionist in creating this. :)
Ok, sorry for the huge delay on replying, been busy with him working out some ideas. I agree about a bloodline, as I wasn't crazy about a Sorcerer Archetype... That being said, one of our biggest bumps was the bloodline type itself. Illusions (even a Shadow Simulacrum) are undoubtedly difficult at best, to procreate with, so obviously we weren't going with a bloodline of "Illusions".
The obvious choice was Fey, but that's taken, and a very different thing indeed. We finally settled upon a Racial Bloodline for Gnomes, making it a race-only Bloodline (Similarly to Sylphs).
Just a few random thoughts...
It would seem common sensical for the class skill to be Bluff, to me at least.
Eschew Materials is a feat that all Sorcerers automatically get at 1st level so it shouldn't be included as a Bloodline feat.
To my knowledge there aren't any Bloodlines which offer Spell Focus as a Bloodline feat and that's probably by design, so I wouldn't include that one either. Combat Casting seems like an off choice as well for a Bloodline that would theoretically operate on subtlety... perhaps make Combat Casting something he has to choose on his own (like Spell Focus) and replace those two with something else.
Bluff is already a class skill for all Sorcerers. Eschew Materials is indeed a mistake, surprised I didn't catch that. :(
I'll think over the Spell Focus one, but it seems most fitting...
Combat Casting I figured a good choice because he's so focused on stuff like Bluff. Being able to cast a spell subtly, while giving a charismatic grin as one of his potential targets, is surely as difficult and similar a task as trying to cast a spell in combat.
Spell Focus: Arcane and Protean both have them. That one should stay since it's very fitting.
Ok, he suggested changing Eschew Materials to Iron Will; so change it we did. :)