Titan Mauler, Thunder and Fang, + Oversize Earth Breaker and Oversize Klar

[talast]

I have a player that wants to play a Titan Mauler barbarian with the Thunder and Fang feat using an oversize earthbreaker and over size klar. I think that's illegal, but I can't put my hands on it. Can anyone care to point out the rules? And if he is right, what will be the attack penalty?

Thunder and Fang wrote:

Benefit: You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon. When using an earth breaker in one hand and a klar in your off hand, you retain the shield bonus your klar grants to your Armor Class even when you use it to attack. Treat your klar as a light weapon for the purposes of determining your two-weapon fighting penalty.

basing on that, the barbarian with the medium size earth breaker and klar is at -2/-2

once the barbarian/titan mauler reaches 2nd level which allows him to acquire the ability Jotungrib:

At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as onehanded when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.

If he uses the medium size earth breaker and klar, the penalties will still be -2/-2

If he uses the large size earth breaker and a medium klar, the penalties will be -4/-2?
(the weapon size rule states: "Weapon Size: Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.

A weapon's size category isn't the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon's size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.

Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.)

and the reason he can use a large earth breaker is because it's a 2h weapon but with a -2 penalty, coupled with Thunder and Fang which allows him to use it 1h

And if he uses a large earth breaker and a large klar, his penalties would be -4(-2 size, -2 TWF)/-4(-2 size, -2 TWF) or -6(-2 size, -4 TWF)/-4(-4 TWF because it's now an 1h weapon?)

can anyone point out the rules to refute him?

[blackbloodtroll]

Jotungrip has been errata'd to only function with weapons of appropriate size.

[Glutton]

If you can wield an earthbreaker as an one handed weapon, it isn't a two handed weapon now is it?

Basically the two abilities do the same thing.

But, Thunder and Fang lets him wield a large sized earthbreaker two-handed at -2, which does 3d6 damage, which is nice. doesn't let him use a klar while doing it though.

[Kazaan]

Well, they don't quite do the same thing. In addition to letting you wield an EB as a 1-h weapon, it also lets you attack with a Klar while retaining the shield bonus (you normally either make shield bash or get AC from it). Oversized Weapons only cuts down the attack roll penalty for using a "too big" weapon. It doesn't affect the handiness so a Large Earthbreaker without T&F is outright unwieldable even for a titan mauler. With T&F, a Large Earthbreaker is wielded as a large 1-h weapon which is considered a 2-h weapon for a medium character. Since it's not correctly sized for you, Jotungrip does not work on it so it's still a 2-h weapon. So you get your Large Earthbreaker (bigger damage dice) but you need to waste a feat on TWF (which you won't be using now) and WF(Klar). It's not that this won't work, it's that it's inefficient; you spend a lot for negligible benefit. If he wants to do something like this, he'd do better to go for the Thunderstriker Fighter arch which trains to use a 1-h and buckler, switching between 2-handing the weapon while removing the buckler penalty and, eventually, retaining shield AC, and TWF, being able to shield bash with the buckler.

[talast]

Kazaan wrote:

Well, they don't quite do the same thing. In addition to letting you wield an EB as a 1-h weapon, it also lets you attack with a Klar while retaining the shield bonus (you normally either make shield bash or get AC from it). Oversized Weapons only cuts down the attack roll penalty for using a "too big" weapon. It doesn't affect the handiness so a Large Earthbreaker without T&F is outright unwieldable even for a titan mauler. With T&F, a Large Earthbreaker is wielded as a large 1-h weapon which is considered a 2-h weapon for a medium character. Since it's not correctly sized for you, Jotungrip does not work on it so it's still a 2-h weapon. So you get your Large Earthbreaker (bigger damage dice) but you need to waste a feat on TWF (which you won't be using now) and WF(Klar). It's not that this won't work, it's that it's inefficient; you spend a lot for negligible benefit. If he wants to do something like this, he'd do better to go for the Thunderstriker Fighter arch which trains to use a 1-h and buckler, switching between 2-handing the weapon while removing the buckler penalty and, eventually, retaining shield AC, and TWF, being able to shield bash with the buckler.

ok, so basing on your description, his idea does work?

and if he continues to progress in the titan mauler class, starting at level 3 of the class and every 3 levels afterwards, he can reduce the oversize penalty by 1, so in theory, he can eventually reduce all the penalties?

i.e. level 3 TM with the overisize earthbreaker and normal size klar, instead of -4 (-2 TWF, -2 oversize) / -2 (-2 TWF) it would be -3/-2?

and if both the earthbreaker and klar are oversized, instead of -4 / -4 (he argued that because T&F lets him treat the klar as a light weapon, combined with the T&M, the oversize klar will also be treated as light weapon as well) it would be -3/-3?

and at level 6, it would be -2/-2? (no more oversize penalty)

[Michael Sayre]

You can't wield a Large sized Earth breaker and Klar together at all. You could use those feats and abilities to wield a large-sized Earthbreaker in two hands, but then you've just poured a ton of resource into getting an extra d6 of damage on your two-handed weapon. Not very efficient.
This FAQ makes it clear that a barbarian can't actually wield weapons that are too large for them.
A Klar would go from a light weapon to a one-handed weapon, and his TWF penalties would be -4/-4 (assuming he's using a normal sized Earthbreaker. As previously mentioned, you would need 2 hands to wield a large sized Earthbreaker).

[ArmouredMonk13]

Ssalarn wrote:

You can't wield a Large sized Earht breaker and Klar together at all. You could use those feats and abilities to wield a large-sized Earthbreaker in two hands, but then you've just poured a ton of resource into getting an extra d6 of damage on your two-handed weapon. Not very efficient.

Yeah, it is cheaper to pay 8,340 for an Impact Earthbreaker and do 3d6 with T&F with no penalty as a one handed weapon and do 4d6 with titanic rage.

[talast]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Jotungrip has been errata'd to only function with weapons of appropriate size.

where can I find the errata? currently there is no errata out of the ultimate combat. and the pathfind society's listing on the Jotungrip is the same description as in the book itself

[Michael Sayre]

talast wrote:

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Jotungrip has been errata'd to only function with weapons of appropriate size.

where can I find the errata? currently there is no errata out of the ultimate combat. and the pathfind society's listing on the Jotungrip is the same description as in the book itself

See my FAQ link above, it will take you to the appropriate information.

Essentially, Jotun Grip and T&F are giving the same basic benefit to the character, allowing him to wield his 2 handed, appropriately sized Earthbreaker in one hand. Since T&F allows you to treat the Earthbreaker as a one-handed weapon, you could wield a large one in two hands. Titan Mauler could conceivably help with reducing the over-sized weapon properties, but would not allow you to use a large-sized Earthbreaker and another weapon, like the klar.

Edit: Or I can post it here.

"Barbarian--Titan Mauler: Can a Medium titan mauler wield a Large two-handed weapon, such as a Large greatsword?
No. The "Inappropriately Sized Weapons" rule (Core Rulebook 144) says (in summary) that a creature can't wield an inappropriately-sized weapon if the size difference would increase it one or more "steps" beyond "two-handed." None of the titan mauler's abilities say the character can break the "steps" part of the "Inappropriately Sized Weapons" rule, so the character still has to follow that rule.

—Pathfinder Design Team, 03/15/13"

[talast]

thank you very much