Level Retraining: First HD

[Jiggy]

Using the retraining rules from Ultimate Campaign, I've come up with a question:

If a character retrains out of the level that granted their first hit die, which of their remaining hit dice is maxed out?

This could be from a single-class PC retraining all their levels, or a PC who took a one-level dip at 1st and then retrained out of that level, or whatever. In any case, in Pathfinder your first HD (if it's from a class level) is maxed out instead of rolled/averaged.

But if, through retraining, you lose that HD after the fact and replace it with another one, what happens?

I see three possibilities:
1) The HD that you gain at the time that you lose your first HD becomes your new "first" and is maxed out.
2) After retraining is done, you look at your new total pool of HD, and whichever of those was first is maxed out. (So if you went Fighter/Wizard/Rogue, then retrained Fighter into Ranger, you're now a Wizard/Rogue/Ranger, and the first of those was Wizard, so you max your d6 HD.)
3) None of your current pool of HD were your first, therefore none of them are maxed out.

I can't seem to find anything that offers any guidance on this. If I missed something, please share! Otherwise, please click the FAQ button. Thanks!

[DM_Blake]

I would go with #3. As I see it, having max HP at level 1 is a game mechanic to help level 1 characters survive; it's a necessary survival mechanism when you are level 1, but at higher levels, it's just a few bonus HP that are nice, but not really constantly necessary for survival anymore.

Hence, if you are higher level and retrain, there is no reason to reapply a game mechanic for survival, especially since another game mechanic (retraining your HP) can be applied instead.

I'm pretty sure you won't find a rule for this. Me, I would just remove that initial class, let him have his new class, and roll for HP like you would always do when you gain a new class from leveling up. If he wants more HP, let him retrain those separately.

Really, it seems like it's GM's call here.

[Ravingdork]

I'd max out the new one that replaces the old. Otherwise, you create an inconsistency and (minor) imbalance from one character to the next.

[Jiggy]

DM_Blake wrote:

I'm pretty sure you won't find a rule for this.

Hence the FAQ button. ;)

Also, your rationale for #3 gets a little shaky if it's a low-level character doing the retraining. In fact, the source of my question is my wife's 3rd-level magus in PFS: she's frustrated with its complicated mechanics, and I was considering retraining as an option to get her into Fighter/Wizard (and eventually EK). In such a case, where she's 3rd-level and retraining into Fighter/Wizard, the difference between 10HP, 6HP or 4HP can be pretty significant.

[Zog of Deadwood]

I don't pretend this is in any way RAW, but here's what I'd do in my game:

If the die size is getting smaller (e.g., from d10 to d6), I'd max out the smaller die. Someone going from a more martial to a less martial class will retain some of his or her old toughness, justifying keeping the max hit points of the smaller die.

It doesn't make a lot of sense that someone going into a more martial class would get weaker as a result than they were to start with, but then it also doesn't seem as if the larger hit die should be automatically maxed in that case. So if the die size is getting bigger, I'd have the player roll the new and larger die but keep the previous total as a "floor". If the Hit Die was going from a d6 to a d10, for example, then if the roll on the d10 is better than 6, use that roll. Otherwise, keep the total for the Hit Die as a 6. If someone ends up with less than max hit points for that die and wants them, they can still retrain for extra hit points, but at least they won't be below what they were before.

But again, not official.