I recently made an elven Magus using the Spell Dancer archetype. We are still level one, and I need to clear up how certain things are going to work with my DM before we get too deep into the campaign and he decides to not let me do any rebuilding. I have a few questions and am curious to hear what the consensus is on all of them before getting into it with the DM.
Question #1: The thing I am the most uncertain about is whether or not it is possible to restart your spell dance after you have already used your once per dance abilities such as the swift action dimension door, swift action fly, etc, so that you use those swift action spell-like abilities again. Since these abilities are useable only once per spell dance and the spell dance lasts for 1 minute, could you say...ROUND #1: spend an arcane pool point to start your spell dance, ROUND #2: use your swift action dimension door, ROUND #3: spend an another arcane pool point to restart you spell dance, and ROUND #4 use your swift action dimension door again now that you have started a new spell dance? If the answer is somehow no, then, as much as I like the flavor of the spell dancer, that would definitely make up my mind about the sacrifice of the ability to enchant your weapon for movementyness being entirely not worth it. Even if you can do this, it seems like a lot of fiddling around to make those dimension doors happen.
Question #2: After doing some looking into the workings of touch attack spells, it seems that one can, in a single round, cast a touch spell, move into range to attack a foe, then attack that foe using spellstrike. So my question is, could a spell dancer therefore use their swift action dimension door to move 5 feet away from a foe, then use a full round action to use spell combat and cast a touch spell while outside of the enemy's reach (thus avoiding an AOO), then five foot step in and begin attacking with their regular attacks and their spellstrike? This would obviously require the dimensional agility feat because otherwise dimension door ends your turn, but assuming you have that feat, as far as I can tell such a strategy would be completely legit. Dreaming about such glorious turns as these is the entire reason I wanted to make a Spell Dancer. I suppose you could argue that you cannot dimension door and 5 foot step in the same round, but that seems hard to swallow to me as the magic is instantly transporting you, and it would be not unlike casting any other spell. I saw a thread about whether or not teleportation magic counted as movement for purposes of not allowing you a 5 foot step in the same round and the argument was somewhat split, but most people seemed to agree with me.
Question #3: Am I going to horribly regret going with Spell Dancer down the line? My Magus is dex based and going to use the dervish dance feat, so I am fine with wearing light or no armor as some good bracers of armor and massive dex is going to get me about as good or better AC some day than even +5 mithril fullplate can, and I definitely like the insight bonus to AC from Dance of Avoidance, but it seems like such a massive sacrifice to not be able to add +5 enhancement bonus worth of buffs to my weapon basically all the time. The dimension door and the insight bonus to AC are pretty much the only things about Spell Dancer that seem worthwhile. Yeah, Spell Dancer keeps looking worse the more I think about it, but I would like to hear what others have to say about it. Has anyone played a Spell Dancer and found it to be worthwhile? If so, any pointers? Or does anyone have experience in just how terrible they are perhaps? Any and all thoughts on the subject would be welcome.
1. I don't see why you couldn't start a new Spell Dance by just spending another point.
2. If you have Dimensional Agility, nothing is stopping you.
3. I can't help you too much here because I've never seen one in action, but for what its worth I don't think Spell Dancer looks too bad. I'd say its worse than the base Magus, but then again all the Magus archetypes besides maybe Hexcrafter are. I think you could still make a good character with it.
could a spell dancer therefore use their swift action dimension door to move 5 feet away from a foe, then use a full round action to use spell combat and cast a touch spell while outside of the enemy's reach (thus avoiding an AOO), then five foot step in and begin attacking with their regular attacks and their spellstrike?
I am fairly sure that any movement at all precludes a 5ft step. Doesn't matter how that movement is achieved.
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can't take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.
1. I'm not aware of rules that bar you from ending a supernatural effect early, so I would say that you could end one spell dance at any time, and begin another by spending an Arcane point.
2. Dimension Door is a teleportation effect; it is not 'movement'. You can cast Dimension Door and travel your full distance, then (assuming you have Dimensional Agility) still take your full move action. Therefore, you could take a 5' step before or after using Dimension Door (again, assuming you have Dimensional Agility).
3. I'm currently playing an 11th level Spell Dancer Magus with a Dervish build, and I absolutely love it. When buffed, I have an AC equivalent to the Cleric in our group, and better versus AoOS; I generally will jet around the field with my increased movement and eat up AoOs so that the rest of the party doesn't have to worry about them. Note that your Spell Dance's Dimension Door ability functions like the spell, so you can use it to take people with you, which is an incredibly useful tactical advantage. And I have not really missed the ability to enhance my weapon all that much, because we came across a +1 Scimitar of Spell Storing that has basically done everything I need it to thus far (enhancing it further since I got it), and a Scabbard of Keen Edge.
could a spell dancer therefore use their swift action dimension door to move 5 feet away from a foe, then use a full round action to use spell combat and cast a touch spell while outside of the enemy's reach (thus avoiding an AOO), then five foot step in and begin attacking with their regular attacks and their spellstrike?I am fairly sure that any movement at all precludes a 5ft step. Doesn't matter how that movement is achieved.
Thanks for the input all. Lord Pendragon, you're interpretation of the 5 foot step rules is shared by some other players, although most people seem to think like Xaratherus. Certainly, being able to five foot after a dimension door helps my character out quite a bit, but I think I'm just going to have to talk to my DM and see which way he wants to rule on it. It's kind of sad that at this point this issue is still so up in the air. It would be nice if the DEVs would clear this up for us at some point. I have found nothing but arguing back and forth on the issue on these message boards, and it's because the rules we have on the issue simply do not settle the matter one way or the other.
3. I'm currently playing an 11th level Spell Dancer Magus with a Dervish build, and I absolutely love it. When buffed, I have an AC equivalent to the Cleric in our group, and better versus AoOS; I generally will jet around the field with my increased movement and eat up AoOs so that the rest of the party doesn't have to worry about them. Note that your Spell Dance's Dimension Door ability functions like the spell, so you can use it to take people with you, which is an incredibly useful tactical advantage. And I have not really missed the ability to enhance my weapon all that much, because we came across a +1 Scimitar of Spell Storing that has basically done everything I need it to thus far (enhancing it further since I got it), and a Scabbard of Keen Edge.
Cool to hear that you are enjoying your Spell Dancer, sounds like its working for you just like I want it to for my character. I decided to use it because it seems like Magi live a very dangerous life being somewhat "squishy" and relying on being in melee range, so essentially I saw the Spell Dancer archetype as a sacrifice of offense for defense and maneuverability. I think you may have single-handedly convinced me to stick with it, thanks. Since you have been using your dimension door ability to take others with you, does your group let those you take act normally after being moved? Dimension door only stops the caster from acting afterward, right? You ever get real sneaky and have other players hold their action and wait to own faces after you move them into position? Sounds like it could be delicious.
I am curious what feats you have taken, especially whether or not you think its worth it to go for weapon specialization eventually. I obviously need weapon finesse, dervish dance, and dimensional agility. Beyond that I am thinking lunge needs to happen asap, and at higher levels I will need some metamagic feats to pump up those shocking grasps. Do I really "need" combat casting you think? Every feat is precious with this character and perhaps I can rely on my AC and maneuverability to simply avoid the AOOs.
2. Dimension Door is a teleportation effect; it is not 'movement'.
Did you move any distance? Why I believe you did!
2. Dimension Door is a teleportation effect; it is not 'movement'.Did you move any distance? Why I believe you did!
Rather than respond with empty sarcasm, I'll offer up something tangible.
I admit that it may be questionable, because it's regarding D&D 3.5; since that is the basis for Pathfinder, I think it's a relevant resource.
From WotC's All About Movement blog:
Teleportation Spells
These spells instantly transport the subject from one place to another. This movement takes no time (but the action used to trigger the effect usually is at least a standard action). This movement also does not count against your movement for the turn; if you've used a teleport spell, you have not "moved" for purposes of taking a 5-foot step. However, some teleportation spells, such as dimension door, leave you unable to act after you've them. When you use a dimension door spell, you cannot take a 5-foot step or take any kind of action.
Pending FAQ and without alteration in the wording of the spell or some change in the RAW regarding movement, I would argue that the above is precedent for allowing a 5-foot step after DD using Dimensional Agility.
I am curious what feats you have taken, especially whether or not you think its worth it to go for weapon specialization eventually. I obviously need weapon finesse, dervish dance, and dimensional agility. Beyond that I am thinking lunge needs to happen asap, and at higher levels I will need some metamagic feats to pump up those shocking grasps. Do I really "need" combat casting you think? Every feat is precious with this character and perhaps I can rely on my AC and maneuverability to simply avoid the AOOs.
I'm sort of in the middle of doing some retraining on feats currently. I had not taken Dimensional Agility until I hit 11th. Here's what my feats originally looked like:
Combat Casting, Dervish Dance, Dimensional Agility, Intensified Spell, Leadership (Base Score 10), Precise Strike, Weapon Finesse.
However, I've found that for the most part I can make my concentration checks easily without the +4 from CC, so I'm dumping it. I also am dropping Leadership (originally had a cohort healing our party but we've since picked up a PC Cleric so that's not needed). Precise Strike is more for aiding the saurian Druid that we have in our group.
After retraining, I'll probably plan on looking something like this:
Dervish Dance, Dimensional Agility, Dimensional Assault, Intensified Spell, Lunge, Precise Strike, Weapon Finesse.
Xaratherus, are you casting Quickened Dimension Doors? Since DD is a standard action to cast, I don't see how being able to still act in the round is particularly useful with only, at most, a move action left...
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2. Dimension Door is a teleportation effect; it is not 'movement'.Did you move any distance? Why I believe you did!
So you can't use a 5' step if you are on the deck of a moving ship, right?
AFAIK movement refer to using your limbs to move or moving with a mount, not things like teleport, being on board of a moving carriage and so on.
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Question for all the posters:
The teleportation effect of spell dance is a Spell like ability. Do you think it will dissipate a held charge?
Holding the Charge say that the charge dissipate when you cast a spell: I think it will work like a spell and dissipate ti. It is a pity as the other spell dance ability aren't SP but SU.
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Xaratherus, are you casting Quickened Dimension Doors? Since DD is a standard action to cast, I don't see how being able to still act in the round is particularly useful with only, at most, a move action left...
Not to step on Xara's toes, but Spell Dancers get the ability to use dimension door as a swift action once per spell dance at level 9.
Diego, I believe that using the dimension door spell-like ability would indeed dissipate your charge since casting a spell does so. With proper timing though I don't see that causing a problem for Spell Dancers. I suppose perhaps if you miss with your touch spell and afterward need to use your dimension door to get away from your foes it might come up.
I suppose that whether or not using a spell-like ability technically counts as "casting a spell" could be debatable. The description of spell-like abilities in the core book states that: "Using a spell-like ability works like casting a spell in that it requires concentration and provokes attacks of opportunity." So, it appears to be saying that they work basically exactly like casting a spell, so I would think that they would probably count for dissipating your charge. I think this might be another one of those grey areas where a DM might just have to make a judgment call. To me, the most logical answer would be yes, but then logic was also telling me that a spell dancer using spell combat would get an extra attack from haste, and that has since been proven wrong.
Hamenaglar, thanks for the advice. I can see what you mean about having better things to use my swift actions on, but I definitely want to know whether or not it is doable.
Just avoiding AOOs is only part of why I think using the dimension door ability could be awesome. Using it to put myself into position to use spell combat and spellstrike on a foe is the main draw. I also keep thinking this character is going to be in danger of getting its butt kicked in melee due to relatively low hp, so using the dimension door to escape melee range after attacking a foe who was next to me when the turn began is certainly going to happen as well.
And yeah, I am definitely taking the 1/6 magus arcana favored class option as well as the elven trait that gives the +2 to concentration in place of the weapon familiarity, and gloves of elven kind are an obvious must. Going to be worth every penny of the 7500 GPs. I'm going to take the Lunge feat as well, the option to attack from 10 feet away with touch spells and weapon attacks seems like it could be a life saver. I am very paranoid about this character just dying every time it gets near strong melee monsters, especially ones with reach.
Xaratherus, are you casting Quickened Dimension Doors? Since DD is a standard action to cast, I don't see how being able to still act in the round is particularly useful with only, at most, a move action left...
As Malsheem mentioned, Spell Dancer can activate Dimension Door as a swift action once per spell dance.
As a spell, it can also be used in conjunction with Spell Combat, allowing you to cast Dimension Door to teleport up to a foe, take a full-attack action against him, then 5-foot step away.
As an aside, if Lunge could be used in conjunction with AoOs, this would be such a fun combination...
Regarding melee. I've focused on taking out my opponents before they can strike me. Also with cat's grace, shield, mithral chainshirt, mirror image, displacement, haste and dance of avoidance you can really become unhittable.
So far, I've been three times close to death. One was when a Ninja sneak attacked me. Second time when I got touched by shadow and it drained 8 strength from me in a single attack (I got 9 :D). Third time was when I encountered a demon. That demon disarmed me.
I've actually 'died' once because of a (lucky or unlucky?) GM streak of bypassing my Displacement on a crit by a large creature wielding x3 weapon.
Just an aside, I would suggest going with elven chain if you can. Technically a mithral chainshirt still counts as medium armor for purposes of proficiency, while elven chain states that it counts as light for proficiency's sake. Better still if you can get celestial armor.
Sorry, my bad - Elven Chain is chainmail, not chain shirt. I always get them mixed up. So you get the benefit of medium armor without having to have the proficiency.