|
I'm not sure that "Does overkill damage sometimes." is a huge downside to "Extra damage when using a Feat you were already going to use anyway".
No, overkill is not a problem, but the argument was about the extra damage from manyshot counting as a extra attack.
I count it as a rider.Even a magus shocking grasp can be a overkill, especially if you get a crit.
Both are riders, something that add to a attack damage, not separate attacks.
Rynjin, can you roll the confusion save for your wolf as well.
Ranger 22
Giant: 20
Magus: 17
Ninja: 10
Evil Priest: 7
Monk: 4
Cleric: 1
Round 2: Party 130 feet away now. Cleric 110 feet away. Free hero point for each party member must be spent this combat including wolf and blessing of fervor on all including wolf.
Ranger up. DC 17 Will save for confusion for you and wolf. Then can act.
Giant: Moves up 20 feet. Casts confusion again. 17 Will save on same characters.
(Monk save: )
Magus: Full round action charge with Fiendish Sprint. Fervor used for 30 foot bonus movement. 140 foot movement. Charge. Free action arcane point pool. Black Blade Strike:+3 damage.
Aoo From Giant: (Dam)
Magus attack: (dam:)
Crit confirmation:
Magus: 40 damage.
Giant: 126/86
Magus spends free hero point standard action: Concentration check: DC 17
Cast
Spellstrike: Damage: and shociking grasp (
Giant: 126/41
Ninja: Priest tells Ninja and Rogue he will dimension door them flanking priest. Ninja moves up to ranger and takes position so they can flank. Readies an attack.
Evil Priest: Moves up 20 feet. Cast constricting coils on Magus. DC 21 Will Save
(Magus Save: ) Magus is immune right now.
Monk: Fervor for 30 foot movement. Charges priest.
Giant Aoo: (
Monk(dam:)
Monk positions to right of priest so as not to interfere with flank.
Cleric: Dimension door ranger and ninja into flanking position on evil priest.
Round 3: Ranger up after saves for wolf and himself confusion. You are in flanking position on evil priest with ninja.
Wolf is still back.
Cleric AC 25.
Damn. Running this online playing the characters is a pain.
I'm not sure that "Does overkill damage sometimes." is a huge downside to "Extra damage when using a Feat you were already going to use anyway".No, overkill is not a problem, but the argument was about the extra damage from manyshot counting as a extra attack.
I count it as a rider.
Even a magus shocking grasp can be a overkill, especially if you get a crit.
Both are riders, something that add to a attack damage, not separate attacks.
Overkill happens quite a bit at lower levels. As hit points increase, the faster you can go through hit points the faster you can move to the next target.
This is the Brineborn Marsh Giant, ain't it?
If so, the Magus didn't hit on that first one. He's got an AC of 25, Magus snagged a 23.
Anywho, Will save again I guess. Dunno what the wolf's stats are, lessee.
Str: 26
Dex: 16
Con: 19
Int: 2
Wis: 12
Cha: 6
AC: 24 (+3 Dex, +1 Dodge, +10 Natural Armor)
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +9, Will +6
Attack: Bite +15/+10 (2d6+8 plus Trip)
CMB: 13
HP: 80
Feats: Dodge, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Bite), Improved Natural attack, Iron Will
Will save (Wolf):
Action (Me): blessing of Fervor for +30 feet movement. Double Move 120 ft. Cast Hunter's Howl (DC 13 Will).
Action (Wolf, if he somehow makes the save): Blessing of Fervor for +30 ft. movement. Charge Giant (he has 160 ft. movement on a charge, I assume he can make it)
Attack Roll:
Damage:
Trip roll:
Damn. I thought he rolled a 20. I see his total roll was 23. I'll give him the damage back next post. Damn, keeping track of all this stuff is annoying. This is why I respect online DMs. They track a lot of stuff.
Rynjin on Round 3 you have been dimension doored to a flank position on the priest. Ninja moved to coordinated positioning with you and priest. That is how my players set it up with the paladin. I want to give you the same option.
Do you still want to Hunter's Howl when in flank position?
That will require a concentration check to cast defensively or you provoke AoOs.
Evil Cleric AC 25.
Wolf confusion check::
Wolf attacks nearest creature. At the moment that would be the Magus. He can take his charge attack on the Magus.
Giant: 126/81
The ranger moved up 30 feet. Confusion 15 foot radius. Centered properly it could still hit the ranger and wolf while hitting the other monk and ninja who had moved up with the ranger.
At this point it doesn't matter. The wolf missed the first confusion save which wasn't rolled. The ranger made both.
This is more about simulating what occurred, so Rynjin is as close to experiencing what the party experiences playing with the Magus. Party was hit by confusion when grouped. They didn't spread out like Rynjin did because they were coordinating movement with dimension door from the travel priest to put them into position to immediately go to town on the evil cleric while the Magus teed off on the giant. If Rynjin had been around the table, I'm sure he would have agreed to let the travel priest transport him into immediate attack position.
Rynjin's in place now. Wolf would be confused. So he's attacking the Magus who is still slightly back from the party since the giant's square is bigger.
Ah, thought only the Monk and Ninja had been DD'd.
In that case, I will attack this annoying Giant or Priest, actually, I think you said.
Full attack on Priest, +2 for flanking.
First Main Hand attack:
First Off-Hand attack:
Blessing of Fervor attack:
Second Main Hand:
Second Off-Hand:
Looks like all but the last attack hit (I should think), first Off-Hand and Blessing of Fervor attacks crit threat.
Confirm (Off-Hand):
Confirm (BoF):
Looks like both confirm.
Damage:
Main Hand 1:
Off-Hand 1:
BoF:
Main Hand 2:
Rend:
Damage total: 84
Not sure what race the Cleric is (I don't know this encounter), but if he's an Undead he takes +6 from each of those (and the last attack would hit for another 1d4+14), a Monstrous Humanoid he takes +4 (and gets hit for another 1d4+12) from each, or Aberration he takes +2 from each.
|
If you're fighting 10 COMBAT encounters in a single day, you're doing something horribly, horribly wrong.I've been playing PFS sanctioned modules.
Are you telling me they are wrong and I should stop playing them?
I've never seen a PFS module that had 10 encounters a day. Are you talking a regular module that is sanctioned for PFS play or an actual PFS scenarios?
PFS scenarios are pretty hard-capped at 4-5 encounters from my understanding. As for modules, I've played about 50% of published modules (and maybe 10% of published APs) and I've never fought more than the established expected encounters per day, except when they are tremendously below CR. Like running into multiple squads of 3-4 goblins at level 5
Modules sanctioned for PFS play.
While I could press for people to retreat and rest, the fighter, barbarian and rogue in the group are still good-to-go and the cleric typically still has healing available.
That puts us back into the 15 minute adventuring day. Nova the first two encounters and head back to town because 1 character needs to rest. If that is your play style I can understand your argument that casters are overpowered. The group I've been playing with does not head out to recover after every other encounter. They keep going until the healing is tapped out, and everybody brings wands.
Tainted water cleric:105/21
Giant: Two attacks on Magus: 3 images left.
Attack 1:()
Attack 2:()
Attack 1 hit: Mirror Image: 1of4 (Picking 3)
2 images.
Magus: Swift Action 1 arcane point. Arcane Assault. Using Fervor for attack, reflex save, and AC bonus.
Concentration check: DC 17
Spell Combat
shocking grasp second
Spellstrike: and
Attack 1: ()
Attack 2: ()
Total Damage: 93
Marsh Giant down: Total Damage done: 138 over two rounds. One full Spell Combat Attack and one standard action Spellstrike.
1 arcane point used from sword
2 arcane points use from personal pool
Two shocking grasps
No crit.
Ninja most likely kills priest.
Ranger with single round full attack with fervor attack and 2 crits: 84
Magus without haste attack over two rounds with one standard action spell strike and one full spell combat attack/no crits/1 hero point used: 138
This is how it often goes in the regular game. The damage disparity is much worse when he crits.
Some points of interest:
1. Ranger and Magus full around damage comparable.
2. Magus defenses superior allowing him to avoid AoOs when engaging.
3. Magus hit bonus higher generally allowing him to hit with greater accuracy with Bladebound.
4. Still benefits from haste or fervor improving chance to hit. Extra attack would create larger damage disparity.
5. +5 weapon hammers through all DR save for untyped, epic, or weapon type.
5. If ranger had to deal with DR, his weapons would have done far less damage.
That is about how it goes. It's not that the other classes don't do good damage. They do. The Magus is capable of doing more. His defenses allow him to go toe to toe with minimal to no healing. That +5 weapon allows him to ignore DR.
There are situations where he'll run into trouble with creatures immune to electricity. That will substantially lower his damage. DR can hurt the ranger. Favored enemy can improve ranger's damage. There are lots of factors.
Overall the Magus is a nasty, nasty dude with incredible versatility and damage dealing capacity. He'll recharge the two used shocking grasp spells with his pearls of power. As he gets higher level he'll be able to take the arcane point and use it to add other damage boosting enchantmetns to his sword rather than enhancement. By level 13 he'll have a +4 sword and be able to add up to +4 worth of enhancements.
Just go give some more info the on the Magus.
Stats
S 9
D 22
C 14
I 20
W 9
Ch 9
Items: 4 pearls of power, +2 dex belt, +2 intel headband, +1 mithril chain shirt, +2 cloak of resistance, +1 ring of protection, +1 amulet of natural armor.
+1 natural armor from Tiefling fiend skin or something.
AC: 24 (+5 armor, +6 Dex, +1 deflection, +2 natural)
Bladebound
Feats: Extra Arcane Pool points x 2, Weapon Finesse, Dervish Dance, Intensify Spell, Piranha Strike (Didn't include it for this fight, but we allow it for all dex-based fighters with any weapon).
My bad, He took Intensify Spell at lvl 5.
Favored Class: 2 1/2 arcane points.
Arcane Pool personal: 14
Total sword: 3
Those are his resources. He keeps getting increased Arcane Points because he keeps it simple.
He has 7 lvl 1 spell slots. I think he fills three of them with shocking grasp and the others with shield and ray of enfeeblement.
So a total of 7 shocking grasps available with pearls. Quite a few more with Arcane Pool.
What is "Arcane Assault" and where is it from? I couldn't find it in the pfsrd.
I mean Arcane Accuracy. He uses it to boost his hit roll.
I mean Arcane Accuracy. He uses it to boost his hit roll.
Ah, kk. That ability I'm very familiar with. :)
Btw, thanks for running this simulation. It not only adds to my confidence that my magus will do well in the mid-levels, but also pointed out a couple things I hadn't noticed, such as picking up a mithril chain shirt while I wait for the funds to grab celestial armor, and the fact that I can spellstrike outside of Spell Combat (duh! :p)
That is about how it goes. It's not that the other classes don't do good damage. They do. The Magus is capable of doing more. His defenses allow him to go toe to toe with minimal to no healing. That +5 weapon allows him to ignore DR.
There are situations where he'll run into trouble with creatures immune to electricity. That will substantially lower his damage. DR can hurt the ranger. Favored enemy can improve ranger's damage. There are lots of factors.
Overall the Magus is a nasty, nasty dude with incredible versatility and damage dealing capacity. He'll recharge the two used shocking grasp spells with his pearls of power. As he gets higher level he'll be able to take the arcane point and use it to add other damage boosting enchantmetns to his sword rather than enhancement. By level 13 he'll have a +4 sword and be able to add up to +4 worth of enhancements.
To be fair, my target probably would have died too if I'd remembered that a Hero Point could add another Standard Action.
Yeah, DR can hurt my guy pretty bad. With a bit more dosh I would usually have bought a Silver and a Cold Iron one to mitigate that somewhat. Gold makes a lot of difference. The Bladebound Magus can really only use them to increase his defenses and a little bit his longevity, but most characters need it to boost their offense as well. Not a problem in a normal game, but low WBL is a Bladebound paradise since their weapon is freeeeeeeeeeee.
I honestly don't see the huge difference between the Magus and any other char here. He's a pretty well built guy, for sure, but the Cleric is the one that rocked that encounter harder than anyone else (though if the player doesn't like the buffer role, I can see why he feels left out).
Yeah, your guy did ~50 more damage...across 2 rounds worth of hits (even though one was a Standard, it still was two attacks). Even without crits (which would have boosted his damage by around 30 I think if they triggered on one of the Shocking Grasps)?
That IS a significant lead, don't get me wrong, but not so significant that it obsoletes everyone else, and the fact that the fight started 180 feet out was definitely in his favor (gave him time to buff), but not enough that is skewed the results I think.
Other people might get a different impression than I did, who knows.
But fair is fair: He did beat my Ranger, even with that extra attack I could have taken. FE might have changed matters (either shooting way above, a little above, or bringing up to the same), but them's the breaks as a Ranger.
Though I do feel confident that my Barbarian (who's level 11 in RotRl now) could mop the floor with the Magus, especially if Blessing of Fervor is in play. He's been beating down giants on a regular basis, as you might expect.
Not that that would prove anything, since we already agree Barbarians are unstoppable engines of destruction.
Damage:
^All 4 hit, I'm just rolling them all at once. He has +31 per attack (that's with the +3 from Witch Hunter).
Along with super saves (Superstition), Spell Sunder, Pounce, the ability to disarm traps by hitting them hard, and the knowledge of 12 languages!
^Pointless!
Anywho, overall I don't think this changed my mind. It was fun, and cool to see your Magus in action, but it just confirms what I was already saying: The Magus is a good class. There's no disputing that.
The dispute comes in when you say he's TOO powerful, or SHOULDN'T have the benefit of some things.
Then again, I don't think he's HURT by the lack of it, so I don't really care all that much either way. I just wouldn't mind if Haste/BoF worked on him.
Modules sanctioned for PFS play.
While I could press for people to retreat and rest, the fighter, barbarian and rogue in the group are still good-to-go and the cleric typically still has healing available.
That puts us back into the 15 minute adventuring day. Nova the first two encounters and head back to town because 1 character needs to rest. If that is your play style I can understand your argument that casters are overpowered. The group I've been playing with does not head out to recover after every other encounter. They keep going until the healing is tapped out, and everybody brings wands.
This is both insulting and slanderous.
No, typically adventuring parties I play with rest after 4-6 encounters or when it makes sense to by the story. If it takes 3 hours to get to a dungeon, 4 hours to sweep it, and 3 hours to get back, we'll sleep.
Since, typically, the BBEG encounter is both the most challenging encounter and the final encounter, running on fumes seems like a downright stupid way to go through a dungeon.
That is about how it goes. It's not that the other classes don't do good damage. They do. The Magus is capable of doing more. His defenses allow him to go toe to toe with minimal to no healing. That +5 weapon allows him to ignore DR.
There are situations where he'll run into trouble with creatures immune to electricity. That will substantially lower his damage. DR can hurt the ranger. Favored enemy can improve ranger's damage. There are lots of factors.
Overall the Magus is a nasty, nasty dude with incredible versatility and damage dealing capacity. He'll recharge the two used shocking grasp spells with his pearls of power. As he gets higher level he'll be able to take the arcane point and use it to add other damage boosting enchantmetns to his sword rather than enhancement. By level 13 he'll have a +4 sword and be able to add up to +4 worth of enhancements.
To be fair, my target probably would have died too if I'd remembered that a Hero Point could add another Standard Action.
Yeah, DR can hurt my guy pretty bad. With a bit more dosh I would usually have bought a Silver and a Cold Iron one to mitigate that somewhat. Gold makes a lot of difference. The Bladebound Magus can really only use them to increase his defenses and a little bit his longevity, but most characters need it to boost their offense as well. Not a problem in a normal game, but low WBL is a Bladebound paradise since their weapon is freeeeeeeeeeee.
I honestly don't see the huge difference between the Magus and any other char here. He's a pretty well built guy, for sure, but the Cleric is the one that rocked that encounter harder than anyone else (though if the player doesn't like the buffer role, I can see why he feels left out).
Yeah, your guy did ~50 more damage...across 2 rounds worth of hits (even though one was a Standard, it still was two attacks). Even without crits (which would have boosted his damage by around 30 I think if they triggered on one of the Shocking...
Fair opinion, Rynjin. Your barbarian probably would outdamage him, especially if you have Beast Totem.
Tactically the way I play casters is they will move outside of an enemy's immediate range taking an AoO. An AoO is no big deal if they can keep melees attacking them with a standard action. It comes down to the idea would you rather get hammered for full attacks by a melee or just an AoO?
This doesn't work against Beast Totem Pounce barbarians, pouncing shapechanged druids, or Magus. The Magus's standard action is far more powerful than a standard melees standard action. That is what boosts his damage substantially over the melee over time.
A melee normally only gains an extra attack with a standard action. On a crit he can do some serious damage, especially if a two-hander guy. Those guys can hammer. But most melees can't match what a Magus can do with his standard action. He can do this as part of a Full Spell Combat round as well. It adds up over the course of time. This is especially true at lower levels.
Top that off with two good saves, access to weapon specialization, access to some of the best melee defensive spells in the game, magical forms of movement, and a possible free weapon, you really have a potent combo few classes can match.
A very nasty class. I do agree the Barbarian can match him. The two-hander fighter can outdamage him. They hit like trucks. Archers can come pretty close. You were wise not to choose an archer. The cleric had Fickle Winds. He had used speak with dead to determine who his enemies were. I had him set up with spell immunity shocking grasp and resistance to electricity. That's why the Magus tends to go after big bags of hit points like giants. He knows casters that are prepared will give him some problems. So the melees like the monk, paladin, and ninja go after casters.
That's why I had you set up tactically the same way as the party. So the test was relatively equal even though over the table it would have been a discussion.
Thanks for playing along. Better than getting into pointless debates absent some kind of real example. Like you I don't care one way or the other if the Magus gets haste. It doesn't really hurt him in combat. It's almost a non-factor for a Magus. As long as he still gets the other benefits to hit and AC, he's good to go.
I mean Arcane Accuracy. He uses it to boost his hit roll.Ah, kk. That ability I'm very familiar with. :)
Btw, thanks for running this simulation. It not only adds to my confidence that my magus will do well in the mid-levels, but also pointed out a couple things I hadn't noticed, such as picking up a mithril chain shirt while I wait for the funds to grab celestial armor, and the fact that I can spellstrike outside of Spell Combat (duh! :p)
No problem. You'll have fun with the class. It's a well designed and powerful.
Some other things to remember if you don't already use them:
1. shocking grasp gives +3 to hit if the opponent is wearing or wielding metal weapons or armor. Giant wasn't, so Magus didn't get it.
2. Displacement still works if they get past your mirror images. In tough fights, the Magus will stack them.
3. Debuffing a strong opponent with Ray of Enfeeblement can do wonders for preventing you from getting hit.
4. Take the Close Range Magus Arcana. Allows you to use acid splash with Spell Combat to always get that extra attack with a little extra acid damage.
5. Blessing of Fervor is often better for a Magus than haste. If you have a cleric, have him cast that instead of haste. Still gives the melees the extra attack they want. It allows you to benefit as well with a bonus to hit, AC, and reflex saves that is better than haste.
|
|
Modules sanctioned for PFS play.
While I could press for people to retreat and rest, the fighter, barbarian and rogue in the group are still good-to-go and the cleric typically still has healing available.
That puts us back into the 15 minute adventuring day. Nova the first two encounters and head back to town because 1 character needs to rest. If that is your play style I can understand your argument that casters are overpowered. The group I've been playing with does not head out to recover after every other encounter. They keep going until the healing is tapped out, and everybody brings wands.
This is both insulting and slanderous.
It is neither insulting nor slanderous.
It is a statement of fact regarding the last five modules I have played, the party composition, and the attitudes of the other players present.
We had one person at each playing healer, a group of pure melee and one arcane caster (me). The only character with any need to rest was the arcane caster.
1. shocking grasp gives +3 to hit if the opponent is wearing or wielding metal weapons or armor. Giant wasn't, so Magus didn't get it.
I was aware of the +3 for metal armor, but did not realize that even a metal weapon granted the bonus, awesome.
2. Displacement still works if they get past your mirror images. In tough fights, the Magus will stack them.
*nod* I've got it on my list to get as soon as 3rd-level spells become available.
3. Debuffing a strong opponent with Ray of Enfeeblement can do wonders for preventing you from getting hit.
Hrm, good to know. I'm our only arcane caster other than the bard, so if I want this on a foe it'll have to be me who uses it. Haven't had the spell slots to play with it much up to this point (just enough for Shield and Color Spray or just recently Shocking Grasp but I can see that changing soon as I gain Pearls of Power.
4. Take the Close Range Magus Arcana. Allows you to use acid splash with Spell Combat to always get that extra attack with a little extra acid damage.
I don't have an arcana open until level 12, so my plan right now is to learn a custom cantrip next level that does 1 point of electricity damage and lets me spellstrike.
5. Blessing of Fervor is often better for a Magus than haste. If you have a cleric, have him cast that instead of haste. Still gives the melees the extra attack they want. It allows you to benefit as well with a bonus to hit, AC, and reflex saves that is better than haste.
Our group actually has two clerics, so I am relatively sure I can get this spell cast. :D
It's the magus's own fault if they place themselves outside of the areas of activity that haste benefits.
Its the magus's fault? Is the magus his own entity outside of the developers? Oh gosh... Is it becoming self aware and making its own decisions!?
I'm actually confused as to what you meant.
Right, so your blaming the magus and not his design? Of course he now has the decision to do a regular full attack and benefit from haste or not, but just the same they could've ruled that you benefit from haste while using spell combat and he's till have the choice between full attack or burning a spell and using spell combat.
If the caster is using spellstrike he's getting that extra attack that Haste would have given him anyway. Expecting to get ANOTHER extra attack on top of all that, is just plain greedy.
This is false. The extra attack from spellstrike/Spell Combat is analogous to the extra attack you gain from TWF. The magus pays a 2 point to-hit penalty for the priviledge, just like TWF. Claiming it's greedy means the rogue is being greedy to claim an extra attack from haste when he uses TWF.
If the caster is using spellstrike he's getting that extra attack that Haste would have given him anyway. Expecting to get ANOTHER extra attack on top of all that, is just plain greedy.This is false. The extra attack from spellstrike/Spell Combat is analogous to the extra attack you gain from TWF. The magus pays a 2 point to-hit penalty for the priviledge, just like TWF. Claiming it's greedy means the rogue is being greedy to claim an extra attack from haste when he uses TWF.
Any TWF class is extra greedy by that logic really. Especially those ones with full BAB. 8 attacks is crazy! At most the magus gets 4.
|
|
The magus still gets the benefit of the a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +1 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves. If the magus opts to do full melee, he'd also get the extra attack. He could do this and get full benefit from charging up his blade with the arcane pool (which is a swift action) or using Arcane Strike (also a swift action). He also gets the movement bonus as it's applicable.It's the magus's own fault if they place themselves outside of the areas of activity that haste benefits.Its the magus's fault? Is the magus his own entity outside of the developers? Oh gosh... Is it becoming self aware and making its own decisions!?
I'm actually confused as to what you meant.
Or, the magus could memorize Monstrous Physique I, for greater benefits for a longer duration and tell the rest of the party to supply their own Haste.
Spell Combat is that special case where Haste was not built to address as it's an attack sequence combined with spellcasting. If the caster is using spellstrike he's getting that extra attack that Haste would have given him anyway. Expecting to get ANOTHER extra attack on top of all that, is just plain greedy.
I have the exact same expectation of receiving an extra attack while taking an action with my off hand that any character using two-weapon fighting has.
You know, the ability referenced when demonstrating how Spell Combat was originally intended to function.
This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast.
|
|
Any TWF class is extra greedy by that logic really. Especially those ones with full BAB. 8 attacks is crazy! At most the magus gets 4.If the caster is using spellstrike he's getting that extra attack that Haste would have given him anyway. Expecting to get ANOTHER extra attack on top of all that, is just plain greedy.This is false. The extra attack from spellstrike/Spell Combat is analogous to the extra attack you gain from TWF. The magus pays a 2 point to-hit penalty for the priviledge, just like TWF. Claiming it's greedy means the rogue is being greedy to claim an extra attack from haste when he uses TWF.
My fighter gets 9 attacks/round with Haste. She could have pushed 10/round with Haste but she had better uses for a feat than an extra attack at -10 BAB.
Your fighter must be a two-weapon fighter or archer to get 9 attacks a round with haste. Hmm. Even a two-weapon fighter couldn't do it. That is only 8 attacks with haste. So must be an archer. Rapid Shot and Many Shot would be six attacks.
So how is your fighter getting 9 attacks? I'd like to know.
Is that an archer Artanthos? Or are you including AoOs?
The Magus will top out at 4 attacks per round. He will be able to do a pretty big nova with disintegrate and a failed Fort save with Close Range Magus. I'm actually quaking a bit as a DM the first time he uses a Spellstrike with disintegrate against an undead opponent or weak fort save guy.
I think gets his first lvl 6 spell at lvl 16. So a spellstrike hit with Big D will be 64d6 and weapon damage. 224 points of damage plus his weapon attacks.
I don't think anything resists disintegrate except magic immune constructs. That is going to make his shocking grasp look like a bee sting.
I have no clue either. I'm assuming level 20 (because Artanthos, for some reason, always throws out level 20 characters in arguments).
The most I can figure is 6 attacks (7 with Haste) as a TWFer, (4 Iterative, 2 off-hand) since he says he doesn't have Greater TWFing.
I guess if he's an Archer he's got 4 iteratives, one extra from Rapid Shot, one extra (technically) from Manyshot, and one from Haste for a total of 7.
Unless he's talking about that Fighter he has that dropped 5 Feats on getting 2 wing attacks? That'd bump it to 9 with TWFing.
Anywho...I wouldn't worry about Disintegrate. As you said, it comes in at level 16.
You're running an AP. They END at 16.
Marsh Giant down: Total Damage done: 138 over two rounds. One full Spell Combat Attack and one standard action Spellstrike.So, let us ask... would one more attack for a possible 17ish damage break the bank here? I don't think so, and that's what we've been talking about.
For your demonstration, let me put forward two possible alternatives to the ranger given:
1. Ranger mounted on animal companion scouting ahead. Both using hellcat stealth to hide. Could potentially change your encounter drastically as the ambush might be turned on the ambushers.
2. Paladin/(Sohei) monk mutt also mounted with Mounted Skirmisher feat. Can close a good distance and still full attack.
Regardless, the main point (and the title of the thread) I think is reasonably answered. A haste attack for a magus when using spellcombat would not break the bank.
-James
Let me ask why you are focusing on number of attacks and ignoring what each class can do with its abilities each round?
Who cares if some other class gets more attacks. What you can do with each attack along with what you can when you're not attacking matters as well. The Magus can do a lot.
The Magus missed one of his attacks and still did 138 damage. The Magus had a +5 keen weapon for the entire combat at lvl 10. The Magus had an active mirror image to defend himself while attacking. The Magus boosted his chance to hit by +5 using Arcane Accuracy. Something the other classes you mentioned cannot do.
Now imagine all of that with yet another attack from haste. He did 138 points in two rounds while missing one attack in his initial charge and not having an haste attack in the second round.
I think this thread proved the Magus does not need the haste attack. And it showed that with the haste attack the damage gap between him and other classes would be even greater. So not sure what information you're using to come to your conclusions, but it's not from this thread. I showed you how the Magus operates. If you think a sohei monk or ranger can match him, you ignored what the Magus did. I don't know any Paladin's or Sohei monks that can cast mirror image to defend themself while all out attacking. I don't know monks or rangers that can cast shocking grasp while taking all their attacks extending the crit range of the spell to that of their weapon.
You seriously underestimate the extra damage from a spell that can crit on a 15-20. Rynjin's Ranger crit twice. The Magus didn't crit once. If the Magus had crit on a Spellstrike, the damage gap would have been substantially wider.
I think the information in this thread proves that a Magus doesn't need the haste attack. I think it shows that a haste attack would only widen an already large gap in not only damage, but overall class capabilities. The Magus's abilities are far more general than most classes. While the Ranger and Paladin's abilities are much more narrow.
Raith, he went over number of attacks because its something you complained about didn't you?
The attacks that really do damage with a magus are the ones loaded with spells. The other ones are usually pretty pitiful in damage by comparison. If they even hit with his lower attack. Worse, many times you complain about things like arcane accuracy, which eat more actions and more of his arcane pool which is a limited resource! These aren't things that are up all the time and require no expenditure, they are resources that are used up, and with a magus rather quickly until much higher levels.
|
|
I have no clue either. I'm assuming level 20 (because Artanthos, for some reason, always throws out level 20 characters in arguments).
Not an archer, a sword & board fighter. Yes, she has two wing attacks. It's not like fighters can't afford the 4 feats or that you don't receive other benefits.
As the for the character, I've linked it many times at varying levels of progression.
I use the level 20 version when people are discussing what is eventually possible.
I used the level 10 version yesterday when people where comparing characters at that point of progression.
Earlier in the week, I used the level 15 version when that was the level range under discussion.
Thanks to everyone who's participating in this thread, it's shown me a lot about the magus versus other classes that I hadn't known, being new to Pathfinder.
I think I'll take one of the pieces of advice in here and just ignore Haste and convince one of the clerics to keep a couple Blessings of Fervor on tap. :)
Raith, he went over number of attacks because its something you complained about didn't you?
Complained about? Hardly. I think a class should be judged by more than number of attacks. Pretty simple to understand. Not sure why you continue to ignore it.
The attacks that really do damage with a magus are the ones loaded with spells. The other ones are usually pretty pitiful in damage by comparison. If they even hit with his lower attack. Worse, many times you complain about things like arcane accuracy, which eat more actions and more of his arcane pool which is a limited resource! These aren't things that are up all the time and require no expenditure, they are resources that are used up, and with a magus rather quickly until much higher levels.
That is incorrect. I doubt you've seen a Magus in action much at all.
The Magus still does good damage with his regular attacks. He was getting +14 damage with Spellstrike. As Rynjin noted, he is an under-geared Magus.Given how long combats last, his resources are quite sufficient for long battles. 1 arcane point is 10 rounds of +5 keen sword. Once he picks up Arcane Strike he can increase his damage further using his swift actions. There are a lot of additive powers with the Magus that are not all listed. He is a very versatile damage dealer.
Now imagine all of that with yet another attack from haste. He did 138 points in two rounds while missing one attack in his initial charge and not having an haste attack in the second round.
Then he would have had one more attack for around 16 or so points of damage on a hit.
Sorry, we don't agree on the conclusions.
I don't see the little extra damage from a haste spell being an issue. Mind you in this combat the haste spell would have possibly lowered his damage as the magus would be casting it instead of say a shocking grasp spell. Of course it would have allowed the cleric to ddoor the party at the end of round 1 instead of going for blessing of the fervor and asking people to stay together for another confusion save.
The magus is a solid character, but there's no need for threading the needle on the wording of things to deny them haste with spell combat. It reminds me of the 3e bards with their conflicting abilities.
You're saying that the magus can still be viable without it. I'm not denying that. What I'm saying is that they don't need to be denied it. The extra damage would not have mattered.
-James
His average damage is +14 or 17 points of damage an attack with a crit range of 15-20. He can do this for up 3 combats a day. He saves this for major combats.
That will increase as he rises in level and improves his dex, takes Arcane Strike as a feat, and starts using spells like Monstrous Physique to improve his dexterity further and is able to use his Arcane Pool to add enchants that deal more damage like Bane or Holy.
Rynjin knows that Carrion Crown is a low treasure module. So the particular Magus I use is under-geared.
At the moment I'm still hoping he doesn't figure out how to do spell research. It wouldn't be real hard to research a spell that does much more damage than shocking grasp. If he decides to research a lvl 4 or 5 shocking grasp type spell that does his level d6 damage, this is going to become even more painful.
These complaints are not just from me. My other players complain about the class. They feel the Magus versus The Environment makes them overpowered. They feel the Magus does way more than any of them possibly can and still does equal or more damage. If all the Magus did was damage like a fighter, they would be ok with it. That's not the case.
Let's take for example the Ninja. The Ninja's most powerful ability is Greater Invisibility for 1 round per level. The Magus can cast that. He can in essence take the most powerful and useful ninja ability and do exactly the same thing with a spell.
The Paladin can only match the Magus's damage with Smite Evil, his most powerful attack ability. If he is fighting something that isn't evil, then the Magus vastly overshadows his capabilities.
You keep focusing on a "measley 17 points of damage" as you call it without looking at what the entire class does. A lot of other players sitting around the table playing with Magus players aren't real happy to stand so often in their shadow. A well-built Magus is flat out better than most classes. Spell Versatility with the ability to use full iterative attacks is very, very powerful.
So why not stop focusing solely on damage and look at the class capabilities as a whole. Compare them to other classes. Compare some powerful class abilities to what the Magus does. See if the Magus has spells to match what they do. You'll find in many cases he does.
I'm out of this discussion. I'll run it as Sean K. Reynolds recommended until he or someone else changes their mind. You should also remember that Sean K. Reynolds is the official game errata. You can choose to run it differently around your table and no one can stop you. If you don't think the haste is a big deal, then get your group to go along with it. Your problem is solved.
I dunno. I have a level 14 Dex based Magus. An extra attack with Haste probably gives me 1d6+17 or so damage. So, 20 not 14, but still not breaking the game.
For straight damage I'd be better off with an archer.
The question, in my mind, isn't whether the Magus "needs" an extra attack with haste, because it's a loaded question and I think there are other classes/builds that need it even less if that's our criteria. The question is whether it was necessary to nerf the Magus with this ruling.
It still seems pretty clear to me that the designer intended Haste to work with the Magus's signature abilities. Otherwise why have Haste on the spell list, let alone Speed weapon and Hasted Attack arcana.
No, this seems like an ex post facto redesign or nerf with the intention of lowering Magus DPR. What bothers me more than anything is the way they did it. Since this is just a "clarification" in a FAQ, rather than an errata as it CLEARLY ought to be, PFS players aren't allowed to reallocate resources or re-enchant items that are no longer worthwhile. Which is lousy.
My DM has already said he'll let Haste work though, so I guess in the end I don't have a dog in the fight.
You keep focusing on a "measley 17 points of damage" as you call it without looking at what the entire class does. A lot of other players sitting around the table playing with Magus players aren't real happy to stand so often in their shadow. A well-built Magus is flat out better than most classes. Spell Versatility with the ability to use full iterative attacks is very, very powerful.
This is what I don't understand about your position.
If you say it's about the versatility of the Magus, not its DPR, why do you feel that a nerf to DPR is the appropriate balancing measure?
|
|
At the moment I'm still hoping he doesn't figure out how to do spell research. It wouldn't be real hard to research a spell that does much more damage than shocking grasp. If he decides to research a lvl 4 or 5 shocking grasp type spell that does his level d6 damage, this is going to become even more painful.
Use the rules about spell research in Ultimate Campaign.
Research a Spell
The Core Rulebook allows you to perform spell research, either to create a new spell or learn an existing spell from another source. In the downtime system, the steps for spell research each day are as follows.
Pay 100 gp × the spell's level for research costs and rare ingredients. You may spend Goods or Magic toward this cost.
Determine the total days of progress required to complete the research, which is 7 × the spell level.
Determine the spell research DC, which is 10 + twice the spell's level.
Attempt a Spellcraft check and a Knowledge check (arcana for an arcane spell, religion for a divine spell) against the spell research DC. You can't take 10 on these checks. You may spend Magic to modify a check result, with 1 point of Magic adding 2 to your total (maximum +10). If both checks succeed, you make 1 day's progress toward completing the spell. When your days of progress equal the total number of days needed, the spell is completed and added to your spellbook or list of spells known.If either or both spell research checks fail by 4 or less, you make no progress. For each check that fails by 5 or more, your research has led to poor results and you lose a day of progress toward completing the spell.
If you're an alchemist, you can use this downtime option to research a new extract formula. Instead of a Spellcraft check, attempt a Craft (alchemy) check. For Knowledge (arcana) checks, you may attempt a Knowledge (nature) check instead.
28 days, 400 gp each day, for a total of 11.200 gp (I assume he will make all the check withe ease) to research a 4th level spell with a damage cap of 15d6. Roughly the same damage of a intensified, empowered shocking grasp.
Spending that time and money he get the advantage of having a spell that benefit from 2 feats without the need to have the feats.It seem reasonable.
28 days, 400 gp each day, for a total of 11.200 gp (I assume he will make all the check withe ease) to...
Wow. So 11,000g and a month of time...assuming you make the rolls, for a spell that's in no way more powerful than others of its level?
They really don't want people using Spell Research...
I doubt you've seen a Magus in action much at all.
I've seen plenty of magus. Inferring I've never seen one isn't good for conversation. You wouldn't like it if I said you've never played the game before, don't do it to others!