Crossblooded & Wildblooded

[Felix Gaunt]

I read on a post by Paizo that you can't combine Crossblooded and Wildblooded. The reasoning was because one (C)hanges Bloodline Arcana and the other (R)eplaces it. Normally I'd agree that that is enough to prevent them from working, but in this case it doesn't make sense since the so-called "Change" is simply that the Sorcerer uses BOTH Bloodline Arcana's. So you're not really "changing" the Bloodline Arcana, you're just doubling down. Thoughts?

[MrSin]

Felix Gaunt wrote:

Thoughts?

Personally, I think you can mix the two without any problems and I've done it in games where the GM let me. The only arcana I could see a problem with is sylvan because it eats up your 1st level power too, but that's resolved by just forcing someone to take the sylvan bloodline's first level power at 1st(you wanted a pet if you went sylvan, right?). Crossblooded is actually pretty meh imo. No reason to needlessly nerf it.

[shadowmage75]

As I understand it (having tried to whip up an umbral/shadow using this method) the dual bloodlines also forces you to choose one or the other when arcana becomes available. You lose spell availability so it really boils down the concept into half steps, and doesn't make it worth it.

[RedDogMT]

Felix Gaunt wrote:

Thoughts?

Mike Brock said they don't mix, so paizo doesn't want them to mix.

Your group can follow the rules as paizo intended or your group can house rule it. Not much to think about really.

We house rule it that it is allowed with GM approval (ie, the GM will review the build before deciding).

[MrSin]

RedDogMT wrote:

Mike Brock said they don't mix, so paizo doesn't want them to mix.

Mike Brock is only PFS though isn't he? I'm not sure if that counts as "Paizo doesn't want them to mix" or "the rules as paizo intended". PFS has its own set of house rules.

[Felix Gaunt]

Yeah, I read Brock's post but am still trying to figure out the logic behind it other than a cursory glance at the regular rules of archetypes not stacking when they replace\change something. Since this isn't a change as much as it is an addition (you're just getting both). Given that rules such as the banning of Magical Knack have been overturned (in PFS) I'm hoping for a revisit of this.

Also you don't choose one of the arcane when they become available, you choose one of the powers when they become available. Which is apparently perfectly fine with "regular" bloodlines but is viewed as an issue with Wildblooded.

[MrSin]

Felix Gaunt wrote:

"regular" bloodlines but is viewed as an issue with Wildblooded.

Well a lot of the opposition from the idea isn't that its a problem, but that its an archetype of an archetype and that it shouldn't work because the rules say it doesn't. Alternatively logic mutates from this such as you trading out cross-blooded to get wild-blooded and that possibly this is balance.(its not)

[Felix Gaunt]

Yeah I've read a bunch of posts on here about this and the only reasoning behind them not working together is because both "change" the same class ability, in this case Bloodline Arcana. While logically it shouldn't matter since Crossblooded doesn't so much "change" the Bloodline Arcana as give you two from different Bloodlines. It should be irrelevant if one bloodline is regular and one wild, two are regular, or both are wild. You're still taking the same negatives either way (ie you're no less or more powerful because one is wild or both are wild, or none are), all the ruling does is effectively restrict anyone who is willing to take the Crossblooded penalties from using any of the new Wildblooded bloodlines (yes I know, archetypes).

Personally I'm unclear why they even bothered labeling Wildblooded as archetypes at all, should of just said they were alternative bloodlines and left it at that (kinda like Subdomains). I tend to wish that logic prevails, which in this case sadly it does not. :-/ I suppose I can hope that they somehow change their ruling on this like they did for Monk and Magical Knack, not holding my breath though! lol

[MC Templar]

The logic that was explained to me is the wild-blooded bloodlines aren't presented as 'new bloodlines' but as 'new class-features of the wild-blooded archetype'. This fact qualifies 'blood-line' as a class feature specifically modified by the archetype the same way it is modified by the cross-blooded archetype. Since the only way archetypes fail to stack in the rules is when they modify the same class feature these two are mutually exclusive.

Please house-rule to taste, I'm certain no one will mind. But if you play PFS, the combination will be off-limits.

As Felix said, maybe it would have been better is wild-blooded wasn't an archetype, but since it was presented that way, it fails the RAW test.

[Felix Gaunt]

Seems like virtually everyone thinks it should work (logically), but alas since this is for PFS that is not the case. :-/ My guess is that sometimes they paint themselves into a corner with a rule such as this, so if they make an exception (regardless of how much sense it makes) they kinda open the floodgates to other stuff. Personally rather than make an exception I'd just make them bloodlines and not archetypes, that would probably solve most of the issues. Until then I'll look forlornly at my Primal wildblooded bloodline that is just out of reach. :P

[StreamOfTheSky]

No, it would have been simple. Instead of the way too broad "alter" or "change" they could've used terms like "replaces" or "loses" for class features of archetypes that would not be compatible.

Obviously, you can't pay for something with money you no longer have. That's the issue, that's where the abuse would come in. Not when you dare to combine an archetype that merely adds options with one that actually replaces things (or even merely adds options itself). Instead, they chose to paint with a brush the size of a barn.

[eldergod0515]

FAQ'ed 10/23/2013 - not allowed

Sorcerer, Crossblooded and Wildblooded: Can I take both of these archetypes for the same character?

[MrSin]

eldergod0515 wrote:

FAQ'ed 10/23/2013 - not allowed

Sorcerer, Crossblooded and Wildblooded: Can I take both of these archetypes for the same character?

Mind you this thread was from 8/3/2013...