| BR |
Hi everyone,
I had this problem. I really wanted to play a ranger. It has a good mix of stuff, including some cool aspects that I really wanted to work with like taking good feats without having to meet prereqs, which is great because Dex and Str seem to compete for primetime in a lot of builds. They also have pets that are super awesome in concept, and spells which beef up their pets and/or themselves.
Of course, the problem is, it seems like no matter what they want to do in a fight, a fighter just plain does it better. I was determined to find a way to make rangers do it better than fighters. I didn't want to be the switch hitting jack-of-all-trades-master-at-none, because I REALLY didn't want to have to pick between rapid shot or precise shot for my first several levels as specified in the many Treantmonk threads and I sure as heck wasn't going to take Point Blank Shot to remedy this dilemma (Treantmonk, thank you, I found your advice fantastic and thought provoking, it's just a tough feat squeeze to deal with); nor did I want to be the second string archer or melee specialist. I didn't want to be a glass cannon either, or the cure wand designate and tracker/chef who happened to melee as a night gig. And I really needed to find a way to deal with the curse of the two-weapon fighter: that if he uses his move action, his attack action becomes pathetic. Ie., I needed full attacks or I might as well become an archer or switch-hitter for the easier Full Attacks.
Meanwhile, I'd like to have darkvision so I can scout around in the dark, and the +2 versus spells is great, and I really like how the racial stat bonuses (and even better, the penalty) coincide well with ranger as a dwarf. Therefore, dwarf it is. But I don't like the 20ft mv, so I'd like to take care of that with something a fighter can't do, like riding the animal companion.
I hit upon an idea I think might be really good for a ranger, and I wanted to run it by the experts before putting it to use. I should mention I'm new to Pathfinder, and though I've read up on it pretty devotedly over the last few days, I am not sure if I am doing this exactly right. I'm sure someone will let me know if not.
The build goes like this.
Dwarven ranger, beastmaster archetype, two weapon fighting style, level 11 is the earliest my plan comes to fruition. But level 12 becomes much nicer because the animal companion matures to full level. After that it just gets sweeter.
initial stats (20 pt buy system, racial mods added, level up bonuses not included):
Str 18
Dex 12
Con 16
Int 8
Wis 14
Cha 5
feats:
1. Power attack
2. Two-weapon fighting (ranger style)
3. Improved shield bash
4. ---- / +1 str
5. Improved bull rush
6. ---- (beastmaster nixes this ranger style)
7. Greater bull rush
8. ---- / +1 str
9. Shield slam
10. improved two-weapon fighting (ranger style)
11. shield master
12. ---- / +1 str / animal companion becomes ranger level instead of -3
13. Lunge
14. Greater two-weapon fighting (ranger style)
15. armor proficiency, heavy
16. ---- / +1 str
17. bashing finish
18. two-weapon rend (ranger style)
19. improved critical (heavy shield)
20. ---- / +1 str
equipment (not including enchants):
left hand: spiked heavy shield
right hand: spiked heavy shield
body: mithral breastplate
rest: undecided
---
animal companion: tyrannosaurus
7th level stats:
size: large
speed 30
AC + 7
attacks: bite (2d6 plus grab) [powerful bite: apply twice Str mod to bite damage]
Str: 22 (prior to point additions)
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 2
Wis: 15
Cha: 10
Special: low light vision, scent
feats:
1. Combat reflexes
2. Power attack
3. (+1 str and dex)
4. +1 int for wider feat selection
5. Improved natural attack (bite becomes 3d6)
6. (+1 str and dex)
7. (gains lv7 bonuses, including becoming large)
8. Weapon focus (bite)
9. (+1 str and dex), +1 dex
10. Step up
11.
12. (+1 str and dex)
13. vital strike
14. +1 dex
15. (+1 str and dex)
16. Improved vital strike
17.
18. (+1 str and dex)
19. Greater vital strike
20. +1 dex
equipment:
stuff to make his attack power powerful
----
how this build works:
For the sake of argument, let's suppose I'm talking about a level 12 ranger.
He is riding the tyrannosaurus, wielding two spiked heavy shields with Shield Master and Shield Slam feats. He has improved two-weapon fighting, and eventually this will become Greater two-weapon fighting.
In total, he has 3 mainhand attacks, and 2 offhand attacks. His two-weapon fighting penalty is negated for each hand, because of Shield Master and wielding two heavy shields. If these shields are +5 each and Str is 21 (haven't counted any +str magic items or spell effects here), and power attack (-3) is active, then he gets +19/(+19)/+14/(+14)/+9 at level 12. (The parentheses indicate offhand attacks.) I'm not going to assume Bashing Spiked heavy shields because apparently that's controversial, so I'll take the 1d6 instead of 2d6 for the sake of avoiding controversy. So each attack is 1d6 + 5 (enchants) + 5 (str bonus) + 6 (power attack) = 1d6 + 16 for mainhand and 1d6 + 10 for offhand because Str and power attack bonuses are halved.
Meanwhile, the tyrannosaurus has 1 attack, therefore applying 1.5x his str modifier to hit. Additionally, he has the Powerful Bite special which gives him 2x str modifier to damage, power attack, and improved natural attack. This gives him bite damage of 3d6 (4d6 if animal growthed). At level 12, his Str is 26 (+8 bonus), power attack is +9 damage, so his total damage with no spell effects or enchants is 3d6 + 8*2 + 9 = 3d6+25. His attack bonus is 7+1.5*8 - 3 + 1 (weapon focus) = +17 prior to magic or enchants. These all deal a Grab attack as well.
He also has a dex of 18 at level 12, for a total modifier of +4. With combat reflexes, that gives him 1 + 4 = 5 total attacks of opportunity per turn prior to any modification with spells or enchants.
None of these include a bonus to hit from attacking a grappled enemy.
The vital strikes begin at level 13, but they will only take effect during the dino's regular attacks, not his attacks of opportunity. I won't factor them into the example shown below because I'm assuming level 12, but note that by level 19 the dino's attacks during his turn will be a whopping 12d6 roll.
I won't do an AC analysis here, but I'll note both ranger and pet have at least evasion (improved evasion maybe) and really good AC. Ranger can be using mithral full plate with some enchants (thankfully with dwarven slowing negation) starting at level 15, and remember he's got a +5 heavy shield as well. Animal has AC + 7 racially, +8 AC from animal companion bonus, +4 AC from dex, plus whatever barding gives (let's call that a +5 enchanted +2 AC bonus barding for good measure), for a total of 10+7+8+4+7 = 36 AC. I don't know if +5 assumption is good here, as I've never played this level character before, but for the sake of argument let's run with it. Subtract a minor fudge factor if necessary.
---
Now the good stuff: How does this build work? I will run through two sample combat rounds. The first is a gimpy but necessary approach round, and the second showcases the meat of the build.
The key, you will find, is the rule that a large creature grabbing (grappling) at a 10 ft reach automatically pulls the target to itself. Using this, shield slam's free bull rushes, and greater bull rush's provoking attacks of opportunity, I essentially play ping pong with the enemy between the ranger and his pet. This works especially well because the ranger is always riding the pet, therefore the two always occupy the same space on the board and move together. Needless to say, the tyrannosaurus's grapple is ridiculous because of his 26 str and large size.
Every time an attack happens, I will number it then tally the theoretical damage at the end.
-- begin simulation --
The ranger delays his turn until after the tyrannosaurus if necessary. The tyrannosaurus then moves to the enemy (charges if possible) and deals a bite attack [1]. Ranger then deals a shield bash [2], which causes a bull rush due to Shield Slam, and due to greater bull rush provokes an attack of opportunity from the dino [3]. The dino then grabs with his 10 ft reach, which brings the target back adjacent to the ranger.
In the following turn, the tyrannosaurus bites [4] with power attack activated and grabs. If the opponent tries to move away, tyrannosaurus gets attack of opportunity and pulls him back adjacent with Grab. If opponent tries to 5ft move away, tyrannosaurus Steps Up. If the dino fails a grab, then shield slam allows ranger to move a 5 ft step to follow the slammed target once. Lunge is also included as one more failsafe starting at level 13.
This all means that by the time the ranger is close, he gets a full attack. He deals a full attack with both shields [5,6,7,8,9], each of which imparts a Greater Bull Rush and triggers Tyrannosaurus' opportunity attack [10,11,12,13,14]. (No two-weapon rend until level 15, sadly.) The round ends with the poor victim grabbed by the tyrannosaurus.
-- end simulation --
In principle, the following rounds operate like the second round, assuming nothing unusual goes on (that's a poor assumption, granted, but for the sake of theorycrafting let's allow it).
Tallying the damage, assuming stuff all hit, and assuming average dice rolls:
In the first turn, it wasn't terrible given a move round was taken but it was still not enviable.
-- begin first round --
[1] 3d6 + 25 = 35.5 avg
[2] 1d6 + 16 = 19.5 avg
[3] 3d6 + 25 = 35.5 avg
avg dam = 35.5 + 20 + 35.5 = 91.5 dam
-- end first round --
In the second round, the heat really gets turned up hardcore.
-- begin second round --
[4] 3d6 + 25 = 35.5 avg
[5] 1d6 + 16 = 19.5 avg
[6] 1d6 + 16 = 19.5 avg
[7] 1d6 + 16 = 19.5 avg
[8] 1d6 + 16 = 19.5 avg
[9] 1d6 + 16 = 19.5 avg
[10] 3d6 + 25 = 35.5 avg
[11] 3d6 + 25 = 35.5 avg
[12] 3d6 + 25 = 35.5 avg
[13] 3d6 + 25 = 35.5 avg
[14] 3d6 + 25 = 35.5 avg
avg dam = 35.5*6 + 19.5*5 = 313.5 avg damage
-- end second round --
Note that this is average damage assuming all hits will land. That means it could actually be higher than this number.
I'm pretty sure this kills anything in 1 round at anything near the ranger's level, assuming all that hits. Of course, it won't all hit, making things more interesting.
This build gets really interesting at the upper levels. Eventually the dino's attack rises to 12d6, for instance.
Also, it's easy for me to lose sight of this, but I have to point out that anyone else in my party within reach of the enemy would also get attacks of opportunity when he gets bull rushed. That could further escalate the damage from the shield bashes.
Additionally, if we assumed that Bashing and Spiked shields stacked, then the second round would look like
-- begin alternate second round --
[4] 3d6 + 25 = 34.5 avg
[5] 2d6 + 16 = 23 avg
[6] 2d6 + 10 = 17 avg
[7] 2d6 + 16 = 23 avg
[8] 2d6 + 10 = 17 avg
[9] 2d6 + 16 = 23 avg
[10] 3d6 + 25 = 34.5 avg
[11] 3d6 + 25 = 34.5 avg
[12] 3d6 + 25 = 34.5 avg
[13] 3d6 + 25 = 34.5 avg
[14] 3d6 + 25 = 34.5 avg
avg dam = 34.5*6 + 23*3 + 17*2 = 313 avg damage
-- end alternate second round --
You can see here that bashing doesn't seem to make much of a big difference… so I see no need to rock the boat on that one.
----
There are a few things that I foresee people asking, so I'd like to address them here.
1. Why a dwarf? I like the wis and con bonuses, and the cha penalty. I like the darkvision, and access to dwarven waraxes at low levels. I also like the resistance to spells, and not-small size is crucial for bull rushes. I couldn't make the stat points work out as well with +2 any stat, even though it would have given me some much-desired breathing room if I could get the human feat bonus.
2. Why a tyrannosaurus? I mulled over this very intensely actually. It has everything I need. First I wanted to use a poisoning companion, but then I found only the poison durations and not their effects stacked through repeated uses. Additionally, I needed something that will draw the enemy back to me after bull rushes, but all the Special:Pull companions sucked for one reason or another. I needed something with adequate dex that I could stack up at least 18 dex by level 12, so that I could take advantage of all my bull rushes with an equal number of the companion's attacks of opportunity. This cannot be stressed enough: it had to be large or the reach would be insufficient for this build, barring something like Giant Toad's 15ft reach tongue with Pull. It had to have sufficient dex AND be large, which means a -2 dex penalty--that nixes most of the choices right there, including everything on the dinky little ranger list, forcing Beastmaster archetype in the process. I wanted a really strong single attacking creature with high str, because attacks of opportunity only deal a single attack and I wanted to be able to apply 1.5*Str to it. Powerful bite was an unexpected but lovely surprise in that regard. I also wanted something sturdy enough that it wouldn't die at the drop of a hat, and especially wouldn't drop me on my head from Outer Space for no discernable reason (sorry, Roc, maybe if I were an Archer From The Sky). I didn't want trip because it had no pulling effect. The breakthrough came when I realized that grab included an automatic Pull effect when used by a Large creature using 10 ft. reach.
3. Why two-weapon fighting mastery? Couldn't you effectively do this at a much lower level using sword+board mastery? There are a few reasons this doesn't sit well with me. First, Beastmaster is really necessary to do this, granted the other option is dipping 1 level as a druid to open up their animal companion list. I don't like the druid option, because first of all, its 1st level BAB is +0, and this build strongly depends on being able to hit (something that would be much more sad without Shield Master negating all penalties to hit from two weapon fighting for both hands, especially with a non-light off-handed weapon!). Sadly, this means there's no choice but to give up the level 6 mastery feat for the archetype, which means that Shield Master would not become available until level 10 anyway and in that case it's only 1 level early. Not much of a bonus at all. Also, it delays the mastery feat progression by 1 level, plus (and this is huge) it also delays the Beastmaster's "free" Boon Companion at 12th Ranger level, so I don't see this as a winner. Meanwhile, the two-weapon fighting feats' two extra hits really multiply the effect of this build, and in order to access them I would need to be 19 dex without a racial dex bonus, meaning I could either be dependent on magic items for my feats to work (and I don't like this dependency) or I could have lower stats to compensate in crucial attributes like Str and, to a lesser but still significant extent, Con. Shield feats, in contrast, just require me to take power attack and no out-of-the-way stat attribute, and power attack is a feat I had wanted to take anyway. The dex really doesn't help this build as much as Str, because Str is what's giving me the great to-hit bonuses.
4. Why do you really even care about spells at this point? Why not go wild stalker and dish out extra damage with better to-hit? I am highly tempted to do this, but there are certain abilities like the +stat boosting spells, Animal growth, access to cure light wound and longstrider wands, and of course the sweet sweet resist elements wands, etc. that I find invaluable and one of the reasons I wanted to be a ranger instead of a fighter in the first place.
After all, I'm not just after raw power. I want the ranger flavor and roundedness. I want the ranger's uniqueness and sense of style. I want a build that not only has tons of oomph, but also feels uniquely ranger-like and retains the utility that one would expect from a ranger. If I wanted to be a Fighter, I would have just picked it, and I imagine optimization would have been a loooot easier without such feat starvation and seemingly willy-nilly, not entirely combat related, class bonuses intended to make up for it.
---
So now, as a Pathfinder newb but aspiring build optimizer, my questions to you are the following:
1. Is there anything I'm missing about the rules that invalidates this build?
2. Can you think of any way to sweeten the build further?
3. Has anything like this been attempted before? In my brief study, I couldn't find anything like it.
Thanks!
| BR |
Actually, now that I think about it a bit more, I realized there is a much better use of Ranger mastery.
I haven't figured out the best way to do it yet, but the gist is this.
Instead of going two weapon fighting style, go mounted style. Then who cares about the lv2 and lv6 feats, but Mounted Skirmisher comes at level 10 and that single-handedly completes the build. A full 4 levels before you would normally get it, and without the two fairly useless (in my opinion… are they useful in yours?) prerequisite feats in the process.
Now you don't have to worry if the enemy jogs off, you just follow and then unleash the full round of carnage. Nor do you care that you don't have the two-weapon fighting feats, because Shield Master still negates the penalties. You're just missing the extra hits from Improved and Greater Two Weapon Fighting, but in trade you're able to pull off full attacks even after approaching the enemy.
Alternatively, you can give up or delay Lunge, Armor Proficiency, and Bashing Finish for this feat, or maybe even improved critical, but then we're talking about getting Mounted Skirmisher by level 17 at the earliest. That way you retain the two-weapon fighting feats but really, really delay the Mounted Skirmisher option. It's too far delayed for my tastes.
| BR |
Thank you. :)
A few notes as I look into this further:
1. The animal companion can't get power attack at level 2, he has 0 BAB. But it can easily be swapped with something like weapon focus(bite) and still be available in time for level 12. No biggie.
2. The more I think about it, the more I think the Mounted Skirmisher feat is necessary for this build. I can get it by level 17, so I intend to do so instead of stuff like heavy armor proficiency.
If you get this, then it may be worth going with Roc instead of the dino. Your speed goes up to 80 ft instead of the dino's 30, which means you can probably go just about anywhere on the battlefield and lay out the hurt with a Full Attack round. Of course, it also means you have to divert skill points to the fly skill... The Roc also has really good AC, large size, and a Grab attack, so in principle he still meets the minimum prerequisites for this build. The drawback is severe though, because the Roc deals SUBSTANTIALLY and I mean SUBSTANTIALLY less damage than the dino. No powerful bite, no 1.5x str multiplier due to multiple attacks (which don't kick in on attacks of opportunity, by the way), lower but still very respectable str. On the plus side, his higher natural dex means you can divert some of his stat point gains to str instead of dex. It's a hard call, I still tend to favor the tyrannosaurus but with Mounted Skirmisher it's really attractive to consider the roc...
3. I haven't decided if I like this yet, but in principle it would be possible to zag radically on the stat distribution. This will sound crazy, but hear me out.
If you bring Str down to 7, you can raise dex to 20 on a human. In a 20 point buy system, your stats become (prior to level up stat additions)
Str: 7
Dex: 20
Con: 16
Int: 7
Wis: 14
Cha: 7
if you put the +2 in dex. And then for every stat bonus, you apply it to dex. And buy as many +dex items as possible.
This gives you an extra feat because now you are a human, which you use for weapon finesse. You use a light shield instead of a heavy shield because it's a light weapon, therefore is affected by weapon finesse.
Now you've doubly thrown your personal damage down the toilet, because you're using a weaker weapon and your str bonus is down by many points. However, your animal was doing most of the damage anyway, way more than it takes to kill just about anything you will ever face at your level, so you might consider it a good tradeoff.
So why would you do this? The advantage here is that your "to hit" stat is now also your +AC and reflex stat. Whereas I felt guilty dropping dex below 12 because I wanted to avoid at least sometimes, this lets me drop Str all the way to 7 because I have no similar concern when doing so. With improved evasion, this will make you pretty much immune to spell and attack damage, plus your CMD will be really high. Beautifully, Shield Slam makes the Bull Rush operate off your to-hit instead of your CMB, so it essentially makes your CMB weapon finessable for this tactic. This essentially makes you an impenetrable wall while you're waging impending doom on the target. Ie., your target can't kill his way out of it, it's just gonna happen whether he likes it or not.
It may be a worthy tradeoff, or it may not. It's up to the player. But it's interesting that the lack of emphasis on personal damage makes this kind of trade-off possible. The holy grail for this build is to-hit, and second place may very well be defenses. Third may be personal damage output. Just keep the animal companion near and you'll have plenty of damage output.
I haven't looked at the feat progression yet, but I think this messes with the prereqs for some crucial feats such as power attack, which opens up the shield feats. Therefore, if doing this, it may be necessary to take the sword+board mastery and buy the two-weapon fighting feats the normal way, which should end up not making a difference. Gotta love rangers' ability to ignore prereqs on feats gained through mastery.
Come to think of it, losing Power Attack might be a blessing in disguise. To-hit is the most important stat in this build, and power attack saps it to raise personal damage which isn't nearly as important. In fact, a second option is to go sword+board mastery and since you can't buy power attack, buy weapon finesse as a dwarf. Then your stats are:
Str: 9
Dex: 18
Con: 18
Int: 7
Wis: 14
Cha: 5
That gives you a nice hp bump, your dex is still pretty fantastic, your hp is superb, all your saves are decently (will) to superbly (fort, reflex) well boosted by your stats, and you got to add a bit of Str back so your carrying capacity could be somewhat salvaged. That way, you also get to keep darkvision and Slow and Steady. It might make life a little more manageable.