Hi there,
I am playing a sorcerer with wordcasting in a home-campaign. I am curious about the Page of Spell Knowledge and have 2 questions:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/page- of-spell-knowledge
1) I am an experimental caster and would like to get some additional effect words. Is it possible, to get an effect word through a page of spell knowledge?
2) I have the craft wondrous item feat. As crafting states, that the spell-knowledge prerequisite can be substituted, is it possible, to craft a Page of Spell Knowledge without the appropriate spell?
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
1) By RAW, no. Otherwise ask your GM.
2) No, not anymore than you could do so for writing a scroll.
On what do you base your answer on question 2? A page of spell knowledge is neither a scroll, nor a spell trigger or spell completion item. Also, I don't completely understand the sentence you wrote ;)
Chevalier83 wrote: On what do you base your answer on question 2? A page of spell knowledge is neither a scroll, nor a spell trigger or spell completion item. Also, I don't completely understand the sentence you wrote ;) Again since the rules text involving magic item creation was not written to accomodate new items and expansions, one has to use logic and go by closest parralels. While it is not any of those items it's arguably close enough to be a scroll to use that logic. And given the ridiculous ease of crafting magic items in Pathfinder, I'm going to assume that the page of spell knowledge was not intended to short circuit the major balance item of sorcerers... limited spell knowledge.
Don't like my answer? Keep waiting until someone else gives you an answer you do like.
I'm not sure which of my original sentences you couldn't understand. If it's 1, the magic item in qusstion is page of spell knowledge, not page of word knowledge as Words themselves are not spells. And I've just gone over 2.
Logic. You're recording a spell you know. That's the entire point of a Page of Spell Knowledge. If you don't know the spell, how can you record it?
RAW might let you, but since you're not playing PFS, it's not going to fly. I know if one of my players tried to game the system like that I'd figuratively smack them and force them to play a different character if they kept trying to do that sort of thing.
I would say:
1) No
2) Yes - but double check that Mr(s). GM is okay with that. It doesn't specify what type of activation it requires but smacks of spell-completion.
Logic: Item Creation Feats are supposed to let your group switch the items you find for Items you'd like to have. If having a spell on the list is an absolute prerequisite in creating a Page of Spell Knowledge there would be no sense in creating one at all. Because you are not recording (as in: use it later to have more spells per day) but making it available. And the rules for substituting prerequisites are pretty clear. I am looking for rules here, not for an "I just assume it is like that because it seems to powerfull".
Have no idea on #1.
For #2: By RAW you can, although I do agree with the others that it's a bit wonky to create a spell if you don't know it. A nice compromise might be to follow the Researching a Spell rules for wizards in addition to the normal crafting routine.
LazarX wrote: Thazar wrote: Yes, if you are missing a spell needed to make a magic item, you raise the DC by +5.
So taking the fireball as an example. To craft it normally you cast the spell Fireball while making you check and you are fine. If you do not have the spell the DC is harder because your crafter is "winging it" by trying to get the coals really hot and then adding in extra bellows at just the right time to get the same heat and flame effect of Fireball.
(Keep in mind it is magic and a game, so sometimes the rules are a little fast and loose to allow a dwarven fighter to make magic items. It may fit the lore of the race and the RP element the player wants so the rules came up with a way to allow it without being a wizard via a special feat and good skills.)
You can wing it with a lot of types of magic items. However you MUST have the spell if you're doing wands and scrolls. there's no dodging that. @LazarX: Just curious: you think substituting is ok for a necklace of fireballs, but not for a Page of Spell Knowledge?
Chevalier83 wrote: LazarX wrote: Thazar wrote: Yes, if you are missing a spell needed to make a magic item, you raise the DC by +5.
So taking the fireball as an example. To craft it normally you cast the spell Fireball while making you check and you are fine. If you do not have the spell the DC is harder because your crafter is "winging it" by trying to get the coals really hot and then adding in extra bellows at just the right time to get the same heat and flame effect of Fireball.
(Keep in mind it is magic and a game, so sometimes the rules are a little fast and loose to allow a dwarven fighter to make magic items. It may fit the lore of the race and the RP element the player wants so the rules came up with a way to allow it without being a wizard via a special feat and good skills.)
You can wing it with a lot of types of magic items. However you MUST have the spell if you're doing wands and scrolls. there's no dodging that. @LazarX: Just curious: you think substituting is ok for a necklace of fireballs, but not for a Page of Spell Knowledge? Yes. For the exact same reason that it's okay for a necklace of fireballs, but not a scroll of fireball. If you had taken the effort of following my logic for the earlier reply, you'd not have needed to ask this question.
Chevalier83 wrote: Logic: Item Creation Feats are supposed to let your group switch the items you find for Items you'd like to have. If having a spell on the list is an absolute prerequisite in creating a Page of Spell Knowledge there would be no sense in creating one at all. Because you are not recording (as in: use it later to have more spells per day) but making it available. And the rules for substituting prerequisites are pretty clear. I am looking for rules here, not for an "I just assume it is like that because it seems to powerfull". And I will counter that logic. Pages of Spell Knowledge are usually created by Wizards who know that Sorcerers make an excellent market.
Item Creation Feats are simply there to create items. Any extension of that purpose, is your metagaming analysis, not something implicit in the RAI.
Again, we can endlessly debate this to no purpose. Again, the only person you have to convince is your DM. And this board is not the place to seek a rebuttal, because your DM may have made a ruling that you don't like.
Actually, you are disproving yourself. Neither PoSK nor the Necklace are spell completion or spell trigger items. The functionality of the Necklace is more similar to a Scroll or Wand of Fireball than the PoSK - Fireball (all are Items that don't require casting and are items with limited uses that even non casters can use).
Regarding
Quote: Again since the rules text involving magic item creation was not written to accomodate new items and expansions the developers could just add a little sentence to the item in question: "the item is a spell completion item"
Finally: my GM made no ruling against it. I have not yet discussed this issue with him. I was just curious if there is any rules (written rules) preventing this. And sorry to say, but your argument is simply "it is to powerful so I think it shouldn't work", so I think it is flawed.
Regarding
Quote: And I will counter that logic. Pages of Spell Knowledge are usually created by Wizards who know that Sorcerers make an excellent market.
Item Creation Feats are simply there to create items. Any extension of that purpose, is your metagaming analysis, not something implicit in the RAI.
Rules are metagaming. And you really think it's a coincidence, that the price for crafting a magic item are exactly the same as the price when selling an item? I think that is exactly what's intended by the developer. You sell an item and get something you want more. Wealth per level problem solved.
Furthermore: As selling prices and material prices are exactly the same for a character, it makes absolutely no sense crafting for the market. So market-wise, a wizard would not benefit financially from crafting and thus - not craft. If you really want to start argueing that way.
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