Hi everyone
I thought I would ask some slightly more focused questions than in the Shackled Hut GM thread
I have a party that if everyone is available can have 2 Paladins in.
In a previous thread I have already mentioned this has lead to a downward trend in simple execution of prisoners captured from my gaming group's usual standards
However within the next session or two I expect the group to reach Whitethrone and am anticipating the Paladins screwing up somewhat gloriously and causing many problems (both for their allies and in forcing me to react to their decisions)
How would people expect Paladins to respond to Whitethrone. Especially as with Witches, Trolls and Winter Wolves they will be detecting a lot of evil about
1. How would Winter Wolves such as Greta respond to being called out as 'Evil'. Winter Wolves are NE as a base but how would they consider themselves in their own minds?
2. If too much trouble is caused would the Winter Guard simply try and kill the Paladins in the street. Or would they go down the arrest and execution route. (Would their be a trial in Whitethrone? Perhaps a show one?)
The arrest part could present issues as in a city of high level monsters and witches I struggle to see how they would escape such a situation.
I am picturing a troll guarded Jail at the very least (with a Jadwiga (possibly male?) watching over just like in the clock tower
Or should it simply be a harsh lesson that you can't go running your mouth in an evil city with monster guards and get away with it?
For elaboration he Paladins already ignored Nadya when asked to try and blend in in Waldsby, claiming their armour was their "Badge of Office" and asking who was going to do anything about it...
So that is what I could be dealing with here
Thanks for any advice
I'd have a quiet word with the other PCs and have the others confront the Paladins and say "you can find your own way in. You're going to get us killed. Then who'll stop Elvanna?" Seriously, they're playing Aweful Good Paladins. These days, Paladins are less that and more about obeying the dictates of their faith and their own code of ethics. (Hell, one of my favorite GMPCs was in my own campaign setting - a paladin of the Goddess of Death and Healing, who considered the Undead to be an abomination and for Resurrection magic to be against their Goddess' will. The other players rather liked him too. He would probably cause Aweful Good Paladin types to shriek in horror... but is is obeying the laws of his church while protecting people in need. (Kill the wicked. Heal the defenseless and hurt. If a foe has surrendered, you heal him or her and can't kill them unless they try to betray you. If that happens, show no mercy. And never ever ever show mercy to the Undead... except for the mercy of a quick death.)
I would try and anticipate their reactions to the plan for entering the city to begin with, and see how that would potentially play out. Ringeirr can inform them exactly what the Winter Guard will do about it.
You can use the guidelines set forth at the end of the Howlings segment (re: the crossroads checkpoint) to form a scale of how dangerous things will be for them depending on how they behave. Typically, if they even agree to impersonate somebody, it's gonna take the quick wit and fast talking of the other party members (if they are impersonating Stilyagi) to deflect potential suspicion from their 'rowdy guests' and their provocative speech.
An attempted arrest would occur when the mirror men detected forgeries or witnessed them committing a criminal act. This immediately leads to increased patrols or worse, depending on whether the witches were able to see their faces through the mirror men's record ability.
If they continue to cause trouble, there's a plot hook for Whitethrone in the Cities of Golarion book. You don't have to openly execute them immediately, but you can give them a fighting chance.
As far as the Paladins' behaviors go, they kind of sound like a walking cop cliché, but they should be bound to respect the laws of Whitethrone by their alignment one would think. Elaborate on the caste system here and how the monsters are treated as citizens with full rights. If they can't handle the varying customs of foreign lands, it's a slippery slope of danger for them.
I'm not playing in this AP nor am I a GM, but from what I've read,
If you go for arresting them, you could also have the party to be split up, more or less ignoring the other members of the group, say by having only arrive enough city guards to deal with the heavily armored troublemakers; maybe the other party members might be arrested along with the others but are set free later, due to having caused only minor trouble (I'd still strip them of their gear and have them followed around by guards for some time/until they leave Whitethrone; or maybe the others succeed in hiding/vanishing, being "rescued" by the cult right onthe spot...
ALSO: talk to your players. The pally certainly has some issues in this AP (not as heavily as in S&S, but to some extent). This seems to be the sort of guys playing the lawful stupid pala archetype, trying to cause you trouble whereever they go and ruining the fun for the others.
Ruyan.
First step: pay attention to the detect evil rules. While any winter wolf will have a faint aura, not every evil-aligned character will have an aura. In fact the bulk of Whitethrone's population probably won't.
Second step: Talk to the players, out of character. Make sure they understand that their mission is to recover the Dancing Hut, not to engage every evil creature they see; specifically, it's a mission that's important enough to walk by and ignore the evil-aligned guy walking down the street minding his own business. And that they understand that drawing attention to themselves is not particularly wise; in a city full of evil, ruled by evil, two paladins smiting everything they see will be overwhelmed. If their armor is marked with obvious indications of their faith, as it sounds like they're saying, a city like Whitethrone is going to recognize those symbols, and may even refuse them entry. The players should understand that they're going to get themselves and maybe the party captured or killed if they don't tone it down under the circumstances.
If they insist on causing trouble in the city, they're going to run afoul of the law. And they're going to have a very hard time finding a place to lay low. Honestly, if they can't take the hints in & out of character, then you're probably best off having anyone who sees who they are refuse to take them in, and getting them captured or killed, but making it possible for the rest of the party to get away.
Being a paladin is not a license to be stupid. Make sure they understand that their deities do not require them to smite every evil creature they encounter; a larger goal that requires survival should trump fighting everybody.
In terms of how a winter wolf would react to being called evil... well, they probably wouldn't flip out at a lie, but who's going to be staring at you, without talking to you, and then declare you're evil? Nobody remotely normal. It's one thing for someone to call you evil after watching you do mean things, but to watch you standing around, twiddling your thumbs, bored on guard duty, and call you evil? That's out of nowhere, which is either going to be confusing or a big red flag that this guy will cause trouble. After all, even if you assume people with the ability to detect alignment are common, people walking into Whitethrone and checking for evil cannot be common, or desired. They would probably be refused entry and cause an incident if they tried to fight through.
A response force in the Howlings would probably be largely winter wolves; they don't want the guard in their area. If they make it inside and cause trouble, figure on a pack of human soldiers, with a witch and a troll or so to provide extra muscle.
I would expect the normal winter wolf response to "you're evil!" to be "and you're delicious." Winter wolves are malicious and kind of dumb.
Also, the main source of meat in Whitethrone is eating humans. Greta's a reformable winter wolf, but odds are good she had human for breakfast and she'll have human for dinner. It's either human or fish.
Considering that Greta's unusually smart for a winter wolf, her response to some random meatbag declaring she's evil would be to politely excuse herself and get back-up, if possible.
A paladin should keep in mind that non-Jadwiga humans in Whitethrone don't have rights. While Whitethrone may have courts, I'd assume they're reserved for the Jadwiga, and the Jadwiga and their monstrous servants can abduct, torture, or murder non-Jadwiga at will as long as it's not to the point of being wasteful.
Huh. I picture Jadwiga society being kind of like Drow society - no real law beyond what the stronger witches and houses impose upon their lessers.
An intelligent paladin should go into Whitethrone knowing that they're in an area where Evil Has Triumphed, and if they aren't strong enough to walk up to Princess Cassisoche and kill her then they need to lay low and pick their fights carefully.
They are very, very far behind enemy lines in Whitethrone, and they need to pick their fights very carefully. Paladins that pick their fights stupidly will, if they're lucky, die quickly.
The ones that aren't lucky might wind up dying over the course of several weeks as part of some winter witch display of cruelty and power.