Can you charge an invisible creature if you know what square it is in but can not see it?

[Mathius]

Title says it all.

[Ximen Bao]

Don't see why not. It'd get the normal total concealment miss chance, though.

[awp832]

Assuming it is otherwise a legitimate target for a charge, and you have a means of pinpointing its location, then yes. So with a high enough perception check, scent, tremorsense, lifesense, etc, then yes.

[BigP4nda]

I'd say you could, though it'd be foolish, unless there is something in the air like dust or sand that makes his/her outline visible. If not then what Ximen said, there's the chance they could'v shifted their position and you could charge right past them, provoking an attack of opportunity, which would be a sneak attack if they have it, if I am correct?

[Maezer]

You need line of sight to your you opponent at the start of your turn to charge him. If a creature has total concealment from you, then you don't have line of sight and thus cannot charge.

[Avatar-1]

You could even do it with a guess - no check or ability required.

If you say you want to charge and attack at that square, you have to deal with all the penalties of attacking an invisible creature, but you can otherwise do it.

[awp832]

P4nda

As I understood it, Mathius meant that you've pinpointed their location already. You must KNOW where they are through some sense to be able to charge. Lifesense or tremorsense would do it.

you can not charge if you do not have some means of detecting them at all. Even if you have a really good idea what square they are in through some other means.

Maybe the invisible enemy was cut off in a 5ft hallway by two walls of force, one on either side of them. You're the fighter. There's only one square they could be in, right? You still can not ready a charge for when your wizard buddy drops the wall of force between you and your opponent.

Your opponent may have teleported away, melded with stone, had his own held action for when the wall of force was removed, any number of things that could result in him not being there. You have to have some sort of sensory confirmation of the creatures location in order to target them with a charge.

[BigP4nda]

If I were the GM, as cruel as it may seem, I'd let my player charge blindly and chuckle when he gets clothes-lined mid-charge. Teach him a lesson not to be so reckless

[Diego Rossi]

Charge wrote:

If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent.

So:

No you can't.

[Mathius]

Does a high enough perception check give you line of sight? What if some one else makes that check and tells you what square they are in.
The issue I see is that LOS is required to charge.

[Drakkiel]

It doesn't matter if you know what square they are in...you cannot see them...no line of sight

Think of it like a targeted spell (no attack roll)

@mathias
No...making the perception check only allows you to pinpoint the square

[BigP4nda]

Drakkiel wrote:

It doesn't matter if you know what square they are in...you cannot see them...no line of sight

Think of it like a targeted spell (no attack roll)

@mathias
No...making the perception check only allows you to pinpoint the square

I just got to thinking, what if theyr in snow, sand, mud, loose dirt, gravel, etc. You should be able to see their feet's indention in the ground right? So that being said you should be able to pinpoint their location, so would you be able to charge then?

[Drakkiel]

Ask yourself this

Do I have line of sight to my target?

Yes...then you can charge them (barring anything else preventing it)

No...then you cannot charge

Again pinpointing the square is just that...you know what square they are in...they still have total concealment from you...meaning no line of sight

[Ximen Bao]

Missed that line. Seems a little counter-intuitive you can move up to them and swing at where you think they are, but not charge up to them and swing at where you think they are.

But thems da rules.

[Drakkiel]

I look at it like this...I see you...I want to hurt you...I'm going to run at you and give this swing my ALL so I hit hard and accurate enough to hurt you ( this is where I see the +2 come from) even if it leaves me open to your attack(s) ( this is where I see the -2 AC coming from)

People forget that a "square" is a 5x5 square...go into your kitchen...most have 1x1 ft square tiling...see how much room that is?

I would assume it to be quite hard to run and hit something hard and accurate in that space if I couldn't see it...I would probably miss and wind up in the next square in my back

I have seen it described other ways as well...that's just the one I like

[ShoulderPatch]

BigP4nda wrote:

Drakkiel wrote:

It doesn't matter if you know what square they are in...you cannot see them...no line of sight

Think of it like a targeted spell (no attack roll)

@mathias
No...making the perception check only allows you to pinpoint the square

I just got to thinking, what if theyr in snow, sand, mud, loose dirt, gravel, etc. You should be able to see their feet's indention in the ground right? So that being said you should be able to pinpoint their location, so would you be able to charge then?

No, that isn't how PF represents combat or checks. You are trying to use absolute details in an abstracted system.

The above conditions might give you a bonus to a perception roll though.

[Arssanguinus]

Drakkiel wrote:

I look at it like this...I see you...I want to hurt you...I'm going to run at you and give this swing my ALL so I hit hard and accurate enough to hurt you ( this is where I see the +2 come from) even if it leaves me open to your attack(s) ( this is where I see the -2 AC coming from)

People forget that a "square" is a 5x5 square...go into your kitchen...most have 1x1 ft square tiling...see how much room that is?

I would assume it to be quite hard to run and hit something hard and accurate in that space if I couldn't see it...I would probably miss and wind up in the next square in my back

I have seen it described other ways as well...that's just the one I like

lAnd someone who wantedto bea smart alec would say ..."yeah you do: a fifty pecent plus your normal miss chance chance of missing.

[Troubleshooter]

I could see a feat for being able to charge a target square instead of a creature. Maybe Blind-Fight as a prerequisite. Characters that take that and Dragon Stance may lose on their rate of one-hit kills, but I imagine it'd cut down on their chances of "Oh no, [somebody's in the way / there's difficult terrain / I can't see my opponent] AGAIN and I can't charge!"

[LazarX]

You can TRY. One. you've got to hope that the square you're charging is where the creature actually is.

Two. Even if you have done so, you're still subject to a 50 percent miss chance. And if the invisible creature is set to receive a charge with an appropriate weapon, you lose all Dex bonuses to AC against said creature.

[Drakkiel]

In a home game you can try if your GM allows...mine probably would let you

RAW is no though...I could see many funny things happening on that try though