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It's not an issue of tossing a weapon and killing another PC. Players intentionally screwing over other players at the table via preventing tactics, or ruining their faction missions exists, and it's easily PvP. When a GM authorizes this to happen, to ignore someone who is trying ot say, "Hey, let me do my job here" so someone else can bash open something needed for a faction mission, there's a problem.
I just walked away from a group that had intentionally prevented me from completing my faction missions. Both of them. I walk away with no prestige, despite having done quite a bit of the work needed to complete the entire quest. So everyone walks away with 2 PP, and the guy who worked his ass off the most, and wasted almost 500 GP in assets to do it for the party, will barely make up what he lost.
But according to the GM, that's fair.
I requested no chronicle sheet, because the GM and two players in particular had tried to troll me. The GM intends to give me one anyways, and so I will be locked out as a player from a scenario in which I gave, and got nothing in return. Half the charges in my CLW wand: gone. Several alchemical items: gone. Opposing faction missions--one of which makes no sense form a g+&*!~n LORE perspective--ruin a game, alongside the intentional jackassery of players and GM alike.
The only way I could have possibly walked away with 1 PP was to light people on fire. But that's frowned upon.
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I am sorry you had to go through that. Those kinds of acts are 100% PvP and against PFS rules. This is what you should do.
Step 1: Take the chronicle. That is the right thing to do. You have played the scenario and it sucks. Just try to put it in the past. You will get the 1xp and in all honesty the lack of 2 pp is nothing over the long haul.
Step 2: Take note of the GMs name, PFS number, the event code, and the date.
Step 3: Report said GM and players (they can be tracked down suing the reporting system or by your VC) to your venture captain. Give them an exact description of everything that happened. This is exactly what they are here for. You can find out who your VC is by looking in the back of the current PFS guide to organized play. It should give you their name and email address.
Step 4: IF nothing gets done or you feel your VC is not doing what is needed, repeat step 3 but report it to Mike Brock @ mike.brock@paizo.com. Mike is awesome and I guarantee he will look into it and do what is right.
I hope this helps you.
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It's not even reporting. Two prestige mat not be much in the long run, but at level 3 it matters. It is the difference between buying something I want earlier or not, and it's not fair to myself, or anyone else who had Taldor (we had another person, a new player no less, who was shat on by this group). Plus, I was screwed out of a mission in which I made nothing. I literally BROKE EVEN on gold, meaning this entire debacle was for nothing but 1 EXP.
And this is why I am having trouble understand Pathfinder Society, as a GM who has done this for months, and as a player. It's why I find myself questioning why I play this, why I GM for others,. I am not having fun, and watching people intentionally f@$! over the fun of others bothers me the most.
And sadly, this isn't the first time it's happened to me.
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It's not even reporting. Two prestige mat not be much in the long run, but at level 3 it matters. It is the difference between buying something I want earlier or not, and it's not fair to myself, or anyone else who had Taldor (we had another person, a new player no less, who was shat on by this group). Plus, I was screwed out of a mission in which I made nothing. I literally BROKE EVEN on gold, meaning this entire debacle was for nothing but 1 EXP.
And this is why I am having trouble understand Pathfinder Society, as a GM who has done this for months, and as a player. It's why I find myself questioning why I play this, why I GM for others,. I am not having fun, and watching people intentionally f~!+ over the fun of others bothers me the most.
And sadly, this isn't the first time it's happened to me.
The best thing to do is what Lab Rat suggested. Take to your V-L or V-C, and ultimately you can email Mike Brock if the venture-officers are unable to help.
Unfortunately bad things like this happen from time to time, and organized play is not the only place it can happen. Home Games, from time to time, can have issues as well.
I would take it as a learning experience and choose not to play at tables with those players/GM anymore.
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Sounds like you really need to give us more details on what happened if you want to discuss it (we don't know the circumstances, we don't know the scenario).
PFS is meant to be cooperative, and there's that don't be a jerk rule, but you haven't said why they were doing what they were doing (or what they were doing, exactly). It's hard to give you any advice.
I don't agree that you should avoid telling party members your faction missions (that can be cooperative, too), but if they had good in-game reasons, you might be at fault.
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Actually, both the other Taldor player and myself mentioned nothing about our missions. Apparently, both players who messed with us had GM'd the scenario previously, and metagamed what they knew. My alchemist attempted to get an item that by it's very nature was alchemical to "study" it, claiming it would further his knowledge. The fighter and cleric both laughed, dropped the item on the ground and smashed it. The fighter e-mailed me afterwards, thanking him for a good laugh when I told them team off at the end of the scenario.
The second one was a contesting mission, which I was fine with. But then the GM allowed the Andorans to roll against ONE member of the Taldor. One, against two. And what do you know, the Andorans had three rolls (one o them was a luck cleric or something), so guess who won that. At that point I laid into the group for ruining the entire adventure for not only myself, but another guy I had brought along who has informd me since I put this up that if this is how people play in Society, he will not be rejoining for more games.
And this was all on-line, so...yeah.
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And this was all on-line, so...yeah.
Good News! Online play has our own Venture Captain now. I took the liberty of pointing him towards this thread and your predicament, so don't be surprise if you contacted.
I hope this doesn't ruin your opinion of PFS. I am not sure how you found your game online but I have never had a bad experience with a game organized through PFS online collective. This group has some great GMs, organizers, and players!
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The metagaming is outrageous.
The second mission I still can't quite tell; it might have just been a tough one, and maybe a bad GM call thrown in the mix to not allow both of you (again, depends on the mission - but the whole thing does sounds dodgy).
Regardless, there's many groups that aren't like that and many GMs that will actively weed out that kind of behaviour if it threatens to come up, specifically to avoid your situation. Online play isn't any better or worse than in-person play here.
The PFS Online Collective is good, and pfrpg.com.au has a chat room if you want to go into specifics and get yourself back into a better online playing environment pretty quickly.
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Strike 1: Metagaming
Strike 2: Violation of the Don't be a Jerk rule
Strike 3: Picking on a new player
Report them. Now. Do not pass go, do not collect 200 gold. This is something for which I would kick players from my table. What's worse is, is that they are GM's. If this is how they act when playing... *Shakes head*
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Actually, both the other Taldor player and myself mentioned nothing about our missions. Apparently, both players who messed with us had GM'd the scenario previously, and metagamed what they knew. My alchemist attempted to get an item that by it's very nature was alchemical to "study" it, claiming it would further his knowledge. The fighter and cleric both laughed, dropped the item on the ground and smashed it. The fighter e-mailed me afterwards, thanking him for a good laugh when I told them team off at the end of the scenario.
The second one was a contesting mission, which I was fine with. But then the GM allowed the Andorans to roll against ONE member of the Taldor. One, against two. And what do you know, the Andorans had three rolls (one o them was a luck cleric or something), so guess who won that. At that point I laid into the group for ruining the entire adventure for not only myself, but another guy I had brought along who has informd me since I put this up that if this is how people play in Society, he will not be rejoining for more games.
And this was all on-line, so...yeah.
You should definitely work with Joe on it. Any player that would purposefully grief another player is not GM material.
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If it is not secret, than sharing can be helpful and insurance. cause if others know you are looking for a book or statue, ect... than when they find it they have to give it to you. If they dont know than may not care to fireball that room where that very burnable item is.
As for the game played, Sorry that happened to you. In this case though you now have a online GM and records of all that was done since on line. wont be a matter of he said, she said. Copy the logs and the email the guy sent and pass them on to Joseph. than join the many Good games out there.
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Deliberately sabatoging faction mission, even if it is what your character would do, is explicitly violating the rules of PFS.
Reading over the Guide to Organized Play, I find I have to disagree with this statement. Undermining someone's faction mission may be considered illegal as RAI, but not RAW. While it could fall under the No Bullying Rule, I would think it only applies if your character would not have had any reason to do so. "Oh, you disappeared during the last combat for unexplained reasons and I almost got killed? Hell no you can't have this thing we found" would be a completely legitimate action to take.
In this particular example I do find the other players to be at fault, but my feeling is that the GM should have allowed it and forced an alignment change. Sure, the fighter might not have had much of a problem with it, but the cleric certainly would have.
I literally BROKE EVEN on gold, meaning this entire debacle was for nothing but 1 EXP.
My condolences for finding some bad players, and I hope you don't think the community at large is like this. Maybe some in person play might be better if you can find it? How is it you only got EXP though? Did the entire group fail the overall mission as well? If so, you can take some solace in knowing that they only got 1 prestige themselves.
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Since there are still people who think you can walk the line on this I am going to post this quote from Mike.
If you are intentionally attempting to sabotage another character's faction mission just for your own enjoyment, then I will remove you from my table. As a DM, I reserve that right, and luckily, I have only had to do it once. Being a jerk because you think it is "roleplaying" is beyond the scope of PFS. Afterall, why would you pick pocket a fellow player to steal the vial they had just acquired to finish their faction mission? Everyone is playing the game to have fun.
This also leads into other problems. If you sabotage another character's faction mission, then it creates a snowball effect. If the character who has been sabotaged is the cleric, that character may in turn decide not to heal the rest of the scenario and very well may be the only character left standing. If the sabotaged character is the "tank," he may take on the monster, withdraw back to the spellcaster, and then make a full withdraw the next turn so the monster can eat the spellcaster. The above two could be roleplayed as "eliminating a threat so I can complete my faction mission without further interference."
Plain and simple rule here folks -- Don't be a jerk and limit someone else's fun because you want to prevent them from getting their extra PA. You certainly don't have to aid them but don't go out of your way to stop them either. It is only fun for the jerk at that point.
Don't be the JERK.
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Reading over the Guide to Organized Play, I find I have to disagree with this statement. Undermining someone's faction mission may be considered illegal as RAI, but not RAW.
Considering that there is a specific No you can't do this from campaign head...this is NOT RAI. It is very much RAW that you messing with other people's faction mission is indeed against the PFS don't be a jerk rule. So yeah, don't do it...period.
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@OP
While your story is probably correct, it's not the first time someone snapped out because of misunderstanding in communication. Are you positive that they haven't actually roleplayed or that your mission wasn't a secret mission in fact which required a Sleight of Hand roll or whichever deceptive check?
Again, I trust what you say, but you didn't clarify story in full. You could mention the name of scenario at least also.
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Considering that there is a specific No you can't do this from campaign head...this is NOT RAI. It is very much RAW that you messing with other people's faction mission is indeed against the PFS don't be a jerk rule. So yeah, don't do it...period.
I haven't had the time to read over everything in the forums so far (read: 8 total posts to date), so all I had to work with is the GtOP. Hopefully, the next update to it will clarify just what aspects the community feels to be under the bullying clause so that other semi-new folks will have a better understanding. Especially given the way people talk about how certain factions, Cheliax and Andoran specifically, feel about one another. Is there a master thread of things that the campaign heads have stated that haven't necessarily made it into the rules errata yet? (The stickies and additional resources pages don't seem to cover it, though I could be blind.)
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Considering that there is a specific No you can't do this from campaign head...this is NOT RAI. It is very much RAW that you messing with other people's faction mission is indeed against the PFS don't be a jerk rule. So yeah, don't do it...period.I haven't had the time to read over everything in the forums so far (read: 8 total posts to date), so all I had to work with is the GtOP. Hopefully, the next update to it will clarify just what aspects the community feels to be under the bullying clause so that other semi-new folks will have a better understanding. Especially given the way people talk about how certain factions, Cheliax and Andoran specifically, feel about one another. Is there a master thread of things that the campaign heads have stated that haven't necessarily made it into the rules errata yet? (The stickies and additional resources pages don't seem to cover it, though I could be blind.)
Hopefully, yes the new guide will cover this better. Unfortunately, you are right, there is very little to suggest that this would be against the rules other then just community participation ATM.
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I feel deliberate attempts to break someones faction is a PVP offense. I have seen a player try to do this. He will read over your should or sneak yoru faction mission and then try to make sure you fail it.
That is an attack on the character and as a DM I would veto it.
If someone does not help you or messes up on heling you, that is another thing. I seen a guy trying to do non-lethal crit and confirm. Did enough non-lethal to finish him since he already had a few normal HP left. I have seen a player bull rush needed enemies off a boat. These are innocent and those I think are fun.
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Finlander: wow, you have met some top class people :)
In regards to faction missions, Ive yet to see someone go out of their way to ruin it for something.
Shouting out 'Dont kill him, I need him alive' in the midst of battle or as someone is striking the killing blow is not an effective way to complete a faction mission.
There are also many missions where a character has to slip something/steal something/etc in front of a bunch of other characters. Are character supposed to look the other way? Would a Paladin say 'Im looking over there for a minute or two'? I have issues with these missions as there is no natural point in time where the party isnt together.
Otherwise you get that godawful cliche ' Dont split the party' being provided.
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Finlander: wow, you have met some top class people :)
The sad part is most of my player complaints are about the same guy.
The seconds were honest mistakes. With other players not reading their faction missions and expecting the DM to stop the game to save them. Which I did in the first example, but the player was too oblivious for my subtle hints. I was playing the bullrush on the boat game and suggested to do that to the player that did the bull rushing. We had not idea that guy needed a gall blatter from them.
In my experience public games bring people that are jerks more commonly. The reason is they are not allowed at private games. This DOES NOT mean everyone at a public game is a jerk. You just find them more often. Again most people that play D&D have quirks, some are fine, some wreck a game. Know the quirks you have and work on them and you improve the game vastly.
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There was one I played where one person wanted to kill everyone, and we had one of them knocked out not dead, and the person wanted to kill that person too but it was for a faction mission for someone else. The player said it would be what his character would do, but the dm told him he couldn't do it because it would mess up someone's faction so he just couldn't do it.
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Fin: I run a private game (although thats 3.5 FR), but apart from our Slot 0's locally we dont really have private PFS games. Essentially they are all public games. We use Warhorn to plot ALL of our games, so essentially it is luck of the draw who we are going to get. Of course after a while you get to know the regulars: one guy dosnt like the rp so much, another tends to loot during the battle.
