CON damage and dying

[Graeme]

Consider the following scenario. A 3rd level character with a 10 CON was knocked down to -3 hit points. The hit that did that also poisoned the character and he lost 3 CON due to ability damage.

The core rulebook says the following on constitution damage:

PRD wrote:

Constitution: Damage to your Constitution score causes you to take penalties on your Fortitude saving throws. In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this penalty and subtract that amount from your current and total hit points. Lost hit points are restored when the damage to your Constitution is healed.

Since his CON has dropped from 10 to 7, that's a bonus change from 0 to -2. Therefore he lost an additional 6 hit points, taking him to -9.

A character dies when they reach negative CON hit points, but which CON will be that be - the permanent CON (10) or the temporary CON after ability damage (7)? In one case he's still alive and in the other he's dead.

Which is it?

[Ciaran Barnes]

I think the ability score doesn't change the actual ability score. Plus, in your situation, you'd be decent to let the character die at -10 still.

[Graeme]

Actually, I was the character. The DM was decent enough to let him live (and was further nice in allowing the potion of CLW that was then poured down his throat to stop the poison, too), but it did cause a few queries and quick rulebook checking when it happened.

[blackbloodtroll]

CON damage? No.

CON drain? Maybe.

[Jeraa]

Graeme wrote:

Consider the following scenario. A 3rd level character with a 10 CON was knocked down to -3 hit points. The hit that did that also poisoned the character and he lost 3 CON due to ability damage.

The core rulebook says the following on constitution damage:

PRD wrote:

Constitution: Damage to your Constitution score causes you to take penalties on your Fortitude saving throws. In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this penalty and subtract that amount from your current and total hit points. Lost hit points are restored when the damage to your Constitution is healed.

Since his CON has dropped from 10 to 7, that's a bonus change from 0 to -2. Therefore he lost an additional 6 hit points, taking him to -9.

When dealing with ability damage, your actual score (And so your ability modifier for that score) is never changed. Instead, you take a -1 penalty to some stuff for every 2 points of ability damage you take. Yes, that means that 3 points of ability damage has the exact same effects as 2 points of ability damage.

With 3 points of Constitution damage, that is a -1 penalty. -1 x the characters level of 3 means the character loses 3 hit points from both his maximum and current hit points. So in this example, the character would be reduced from -3 hit points to -6 hit points. Still alive.

Quote:

A character dies when they reach negative CON hit points, but which CON will be that be - the permanent CON (10) or the temporary CON after ability damage (7)? In one case he's still alive and in the other he's dead.

Which is it?

Ability damage does not change your actual score. The character would still die at -10.

[Heymitch]

3 points of Constitution ability damage would only apply a -1 penalty to relevant statistics, because of the way ability damage works.

CRB wrote:

For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.

Constitution: Damage to your Constitution score causes you to take penalties on your Fortitude saving throws. In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this penalty and subtract that amount from your current and total hit points. Lost hit points are restored when the damage to your Constitution is healed. A character with a Constitution score of 0 is dead.

The character would lose 3 hit points from the ability damage, not 6.

[concerro]

Con damage does not actually drop your con score. Con drain would, but luckily you only had to deal with damage so if your con was 10 then you die at -10 not -7

[Graeme]

There was another section of the rules that also caused confusion:

PRD wrote:

For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score. The only exception to this is your Constitution score. If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die. Unless otherwise noted, damage to your ability scores is healed at the rate of 1 per day to each ability score that has been damaged. Ability damage can be healed through the use of spells, such as lesser restoration.

This doesn't explain what happens when you take an odd number of damage to an ability. One interpretation is that to take the consistent "round down" approach, and so the character above would only lose 3 hit points (for a -1 penalty to CON statistics because 3/2 rounded down is 1). Instead, we looked at the actual CON score itself, and saw that it had dropped two bonus points.

I saw in the Acid damage section that exposure to acid fumes can cause 1 CON per round damage, so I think the above quoted rule is just an indication and not a hard rule, as otherwise that 1 CON per round damage would never reduce hit points and saving throws, because each round the damage is less than two....

Now, as to which CON (10 or 7) is used to determine dying, the core rulebook says:

PRD wrote:

Dead

When your character's current hit points drop to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score or lower, or if he succumbs to massive damage, he's dead. A character can also die from taking ability damage or suffering an ability drain that reduces his Constitution score to 0 (see Special Abilities).

That uses the same term (Constitution score) for both the limit at which a character dies, and the value after ability damage or drain. This implies that it is always the current CON that is used, after any CON modifiers (positive or negative). That makes CON damage absolutely deadly - it reduces your hit points AND the point at which you die. The higher level you are, the deadlier it becomes, since you'll be losing more hit points for every two points of CON loss. It's also reducing your saving throw to stop poison or to stabilise....

RAW, I think it has to be current CON that determines when you die. RAI, I don't know, but I'm very happy for a house rule to say it's your permanent CON that's used to determine when you die.

[Graeme]

Heymitch wrote:

3 points of Constitution ability damage would only apply a -1 penalty to relevant statistics, because of the way ability damage works.

CRB wrote:

For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.

Constitution: Damage to your Constitution score causes you to take penalties on your Fortitude saving throws. In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this penalty and subtract that amount from your current and total hit points. Lost hit points are restored when the damage to your Constitution is healed. A character with a Constitution score of 0 is dead.

The character would lose 3 hit points from the ability damage, not 6.

I wondered about that on the night, but if you apply that to the acid fume situation I mentioned never affects your CON based statistics, even though after ten rounds, you could be at a net -10 CON with no penalties. That doesn't seem right.

PRD wrote:

The fumes from most acids are inhaled poisons. Those who are adjacent to a large body of acid must make a DC 13 Fortitude save or take 1 point of Constitution damage each round. This poison does not have a frequency, a creature is safe as soon as it moves away from the acid.

[Jeraa]

Quote:

I saw in the Acid damage section that exposure to acid fumes can cause 1 CON per round damage, so I think the above quoted rule is just an indication and not a hard rule, as otherwise that 1 CON per round damage would never reduce hit points and saving throws, because each round the damage is less than two....

Its still damage - it adds up over time. 1 con damage in the first round won't do anything, but when you take another point of damage in the second round, you now have 2 Constitution damage and start taking penalties.

Quote:

That uses the same term (Constitution score) for both the limit at which a character dies, and the value after ability damage or drain. This implies that it is always the current CON that is used, after any CON modifiers (positive or negative). That makes CON damage absolutely deadly - it reduces your hit points AND the point at which you die. The higher level you are, the deadlier it becomes, since you'll be losing more hit points for every two points of CON loss. It's also reducing your saving throw to stop poison or to stabilise....

RAW, I think it has to be current CON that determines when you die. RAI, I don't know, but I'm very happy for a house rule to say it's your permanent CON that's used to determine when you die.

Again, read the rules. Ability damage NEVER changes the actual score. Only ability DRAIN does that.

Quote:

Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.

[Graeme]

Jeraa - thank you. I'd missed that statement and that resolves all of the issues. No further questions :)

[concerro]

Graeme you die at the actual con score. That is RAW and RAI. You don't die at any modifier or penalty.