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Why would he be removed?
He just has one rather ineffective class level.
He'll be less effective, and less likely to complete future missions, than a PC who was playing with a full deck, and that may start a spiral of failure that makes the PC less viable, but it shouldn't prevent him from being used, per se.
As long as he hasn't done anything to disqualify himself from the campaign for other reasons, such as committing some heinously evil acts that sent his alignment into the disallowed evil territory;
or repeated acts of petty Player vs Player conflict, or jerk behaviour.
In that case, it matters little what classes the PC has.
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Telling a lie does not necessarily make a Paladin fall. Which deity?
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she...act with honor (not lying...)
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features (including the service of the paladin's mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any further in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations
A paladin who lies definitely needs an atonement.
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He wouldn't be "dead" or unplayable. He just would lose all access to any abilities from the Paladin class.
So, for example, he'd lose Smite, Grace, Lay on Hands... etc.
In other words, be a fighter without the feats.
One of the character concepts I have ratting around in my head would be something like a Paladin 1 / Fighter X. I'd likely give have GM credit from The Confirmation.
At the start of the first game I play with him, I would describe the horrors he witnessed when the [redacted] killed his comrades during the Confirmation. He'll have become an alcoholic, and convinced himself that his patron deity abandoned him in his time of need. He'd become a fallen paladin at that point--loosing his powers--and advance as a your typical jaded, uncouth mercenary for the rest of his career. But what a great backstory it would be.
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I agree that such a character should be playable. But here's the thing.
All conditions gained during an adventure, except for permanent negative levels, ability drain that does not reduce an ability score to 0, and conditions that provide no mechanical effect, must be resolved before the end of the session; if these are not resolved the character should be reported as ‘dead.’
I could definitely see GMs being hard-nosed about this. Although "fallen" is not a Condition (as in those that are listed in the glossary of the Core Rulebook), it would be a condition in the sense that it should be noted on the chronicle sheet. But if it is noted on the chronicle sheet and has a mechanical effect (which it does), then it should be cleared or the character marked as dead.
Personally, I hate the rule quoted above precisely because of cases such as this. I think it causes more headaches and arguments than it is worth.
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so Fox - what would your advise be? not to take that level of paladin? (it's his last level and he had not played as part paladin PC)...
Originally I had planned to start this PC as a Fighter (to get Tower Shield), as it fit the background. And then start taking levels of Paladin (and maybe Hellknight), but in his first few games he started using Bluff - which caused me to wonder if a Paladin could use that skill. So I posted a thread about it, and from the reactions to that decided to not take the Paladin Path. But it is tempting me again... it just fits the PC for RP reasons, so I would be perfectly happy with "Fallen Paladin" because of "little white lies". You know, things like.
Or maybe I'll take a level of FTR and just SAY he's a Fallen Paladin...
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I would totally take the level of paladin! My post was meant as a warning that you might be buying into arguments that you don't want to have.
ETA: of course, Fighter who puts his bonus feat into Iron Will is mechanically identical to a fallen Paladin, without worrying about whether some random GM is going to rain on your parade.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Hamburg
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I agree that such a character should be playable. But here's the thing.
All conditions gained during an adventure, except for permanent negative levels, ability drain that does not reduce an ability score to 0, and conditions that provide no mechanical effect, must be resolved before the end of the session; if these are not resolved the character should be reported as ‘dead.’I could definitely see GMs being hard-nosed about this. Although "fallen" is not a Condition (as in those that are listed in the glossary of the Core Rulebook), it would be a condition in the sense that it should be noted on the chronicle sheet. But if it is noted on the chronicle sheet and has a mechanical effect (which it does), then it should be cleared or the character marked as dead.
Personally, I hate the rule quoted above precisely because of cases such as this. I think it causes more headaches and arguments than it is worth.
A paladin losing paladin abilities is more similar to permanent negative levels or ability drain than to ongoing conditions.
What the rule essentially says is you can't leave the table with stuff on your character that will require a roll (typically a save) in regular intervals, because time between scenarios is undefined.
Anything that stays as it is until removed can be kept and removed later.
On the topic of the lying paladin: For an existing character, I wouldn't get that level of paladin if the character already lies regularly. No paladin who respects his code would train a liar to become a paladin (at least not without forcing strict oaths of truth from the canditate).
You could, however, play it in a way that the character actually was convinced that lying is bad and then began training as a paladin. He would still have to deal with breaking his code if he lies again.
One of the character concepts I have ratting around in my head would be something like a Paladin 1 / Fighter X. I'd likely give have GM credit from The Confirmation.
At the start of the first game I play with him, I would describe the horrors he witnessed when the [redacted] killed his comrades during the Confirmation. He'll have become an alcoholic, and convinced himself that his patron deity abandoned him in his time of need. He'd become a fallen paladin at that point--loosing his powers--and advance as a your typical jaded, uncouth mercenary for the rest of his career. But what a great backstory it would be.
I'd suggest just go with the backstory and don't take that level of ex-paladin. Still makes for some good roleplaying if your fighter tells of his time as a paladin and how he lost his deity's favor.
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no, conditions must be dealt with at the table... that includes negative levels. However is the loss of paladin ability a condition? i don't think so.
I agree, because this is what I assume you should use to define a condition.
All conditions gained during an adventure, except for permanent negative levels, ability drain that does not reduce an ability score to 0, and conditions that provide no mechanical effect, must be resolved before the end of the session; if these are not resolved the character should be reported as ‘dead.’
Given the text from the guide (above), I see no reason why an ex- of any class wouldn't be allowed to progress in PFS play. Not being able to advance as a paladin is not a condition. Atonement are only required when a character's alignment would be evil, and only because evil PCs is not allowed in PFS play.
If someone wants to belabor the "condition that provides no mechanical effect" to argue that being a fallen paladin has a "mechanical effect" and thus, needs to be cleared at the end of a session--I'd respond that being a fallen paladin has a mechanical effect, isn't actually a
"condition," as defined by the PRD linked above.
This makes sense to me.
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@nosig: I would advise against the level of Paladin, simply because it could set off issues (long, side track discussions) at the table. Instead, maybe, take a level of Inquisitor or Cleric, so you get some of the Paladin-like feel, without dealing with the mechanical issues (and social issues) of playing a fallen Paladin. Martial Artist Monk might also give some of the feel, without gaining actual divine spells.