Manuever Master Tenguing

[Thalin]

Want to open this up to all of the rules lawyers (and this is all for RAW play, btw, since I am talking about a PFS character). This came up in an online game yesterday.

So enter Polly, the Manuever Master / Lore Warden. His regular attack action is typically claw / claw / bite, with an extra manuever of his choice, per Manuever Master. He chooses NOT to make an unarmed strike (though he could), since that would make his claw / claw / bite secondary attacks (which would mean -5 to attack, a bad thing).

For clarification, in addition to my "Flurry of Manuever" bonus, we are talking about doing trips as a substitution for a claw attack (Combat Manuever - Dirty Trick from flurry / claw as trip / claw as trip / bite as disarm is a "typical" Polly Round).

Here is manuever master's "Flurry of Manuevers"

Spoiler:

At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action, a maneuver master can make one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action. The maneuver master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers, though all combat maneuver checks suffer a –2 penalty when using a flurry.

So life is good there, and he often gets many tricks. Well, one of the feats he has is Ki Throw, which was pointed out tonight does NOT allow you to work if you are using natural weapons, since they are not unarmed strikes.

Spoiler:

Benefit: On a successful unarmed trip attack against a target your size or smaller, you may throw the target prone in any square you threaten rather than its own square. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity, and you cannot throw the creature into a space occupied by other creatures.

and of course the relevant text on doing "Tripping":

Spoiler:

You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Improved Trip feat, or a similar ability, initiating a trip provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.

1) The GM argued I can't even use my Manuever Master bonus attack as an "Unarmed Strike", unless I wanted to make my claw / claw / bite manuever secondary attacks. Is this correct? This might end up making the feat completely worthless; but luckily I can trade it out with Fighter 4 (which I might take "sooner rather than later" if this is the case).

The reason this is relevant is the text in Ki Throw that states you must use an unarmed strike.

2) Is my (new) reading of the feat correct; IE: am I restricted from doing Ki Throw when I trip with a Claw or Bite attack? One of our locals said no, that you don't technically use te "claw" attack:

Spoiler:

Not exactly. A trip is a maneuver, not something you do as part of a damage-dealing attack (barring some special abilities). So if you use Flurry of Maneuvers to Claw, Claw, Bite, then Trip with your body (sweep the leg!) you can make a Ki Throw. What Ki Throw does not allow is tripping with a manufactured weapon (which has some other advantages; namely if it has the trip property you can drop it if you fail by more than 10 to avoid dropping prone and if it has reach you can trip with reach).

3) I've been taking -4 on my claw and bite attacks to disarm; if they are not unarmed strikes, do I actually not take this -4? I know it means that I don't end up with the weapon in hand, but I usually immediate-action drop it anyway.

This was a local's answer:

Spoiler:

Again, you're not actually using the claw or bite attacks to disarm, it's a maneuver. And you are never considered unarmed because you possess the Improved Unarmed Strike Feat. You do not take -4, and you may end up with the weapon in hand if you choose.

[Avianfoo]

Woah. Thems alot of questions.

Lets work it backwards (coz that is how I feel today)

3) You should not be taking -4 to disarm attempts since Claws and Beak are definitely count as "armed". Also Improved Unarmed Strike says you count as armed when you are unarmed. So that, to me, says that Improved Unarmed Strikes also count as "armed" and so don't take the -4 penalty from a disarm

2) Unfortunately, it looks like only "unarmed" strikes work here. Which leads me to believe that Improved Unarmed Strike counts both as armed and unarmed whichever is better for the PC.

1) This one is more difficult

Combat, Natural Weapons wrote:

You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.

so it would seem that if you use an unarmed strike, your natural weapons become secondaries (with -5 penalty). However a trip maneuver is "instead" of a melee attack. So does this make all your natural weapons secondaries? I hope not, but strictly by RAW it looks like it does.

I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.

[Thalin]

But is the manuever an "unarmed trip attack", I guess that is the question. If I make it an unarmed trip attack, do my claw/claw/bite become secondaries?

And here we thought that Paizo tried to make manuevers easy :).

[David_Bross]

Well I adjudicated this in game, but I went back to look after the fact as well. The ONLY way you can get an unarmed attack, would be to take all of your natural attacks as secondary, which I think we both agree on.

The key text here for ki throw is unarmed trip attack. Which I interpret as the attack its replacing is from an unarmed strike. Under this interpretation the only way to utilize key throw, is to made the flurry of maneuvers with an unarmed attack, which means all of your natural attacks become secondary.

As another aside, 2 levels of white haired witch would net you another natural attack, with grab, that can constrict as a swift action, and you don't gain the grappled condition when it grab something.

In a few levels this will become mostly moot, as you'll want your iterative attack most likely, and then you'll be making unarmed strike +6/+4 (maneuver only, including bonus)/+1 with +1/+1/+1 from bite bite claw and any maneuvers substituting regular attacks suffering the appropriate -2 penalty, per flurry of maneuvers.
So +6/+4 (maneuver only)/+1/+1/+1/+1 Or you could just go +6/+6/+6/+4 (maneuver only), with -2 as any taken for maneuvers. Then penalty for maneuvers is probably only minus one at that point, as your monk level will count instead of your BAB.

[Thalin]

I agree with your interpretation of the text in regards to my claw / claw / bite, my only quesiton was the Manuever Master bonus trip.

Do tengu have hair? Prehensic feathers? :). It'd make for an interesting build to try to get as many natural attacks as possible (without being a synthasist).

And yes, once I'm 7th level (getting a 2nd attack and better unarmed damage) I will probably start using my unarmed strikes and move the "claw/bite" routine to secondary (yay 6 attacks :)), but that is several levels away. I'll probably also fighter-switch that feat out @ 6th level for Improved Dirty Trick, since I've been using that manuever a lot lately.

Plus, it's something to know in general... I can see your perspective on the manuever, but still question what that "manuever" is (since it is free, could I declare it "unarmed" so I can Ki Throw?). I just wanted to know for certain. And it was good that, because of finding that out, I discovered I don't have to take -4 on disarm :).

I'll actually be using your ruling until I hear otherwise; so I'll only do Ki Throws if I move and trip or want it badly enough to make my claws / bite secondaries.