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I like the idea behind E6, but I find the stagnation of the character to be boring (I have the same problem with only 20 levels in a class). The character goes up 6 levels, then just stops, gaining some feats after that. The most they can hope for is a dm that is willing to turn the higher level abilities into feats. So, I came up with an alternate idea, of sorts...
It is a combination of E6, Gestalt and Dual-Classing (from second addition). Multiclassing under the current rules is out. But, when the Character hits 6th (or what ever max level the DM is using, for E8 etc.) they can start over in another class. HP, Skill points, BAB and Saving throws work like Gestalt, they are replaced with the higher value from previous levels. The XP to gain the next level would be the equivalent to what is needed to get to the new level in the class +1. (So 2nd level xp for the first level, and 7th level xp for the 6th level in the class)
An example: The 6th level wizard dual-classes into a fighter. The wizard does not get a +1 bab at 1st level, but the fighter does, so the characters BAB increases by 1. But when the character becomes a second level fighter, the wizard side already gives a +1 BAB, so the BAB is not increased. The bonuses replace, not stack, with the original bonuses of that level for the character, like a gestalt character.
This would continue to provide the same spell level limitations, BAB limitations and all the other limitations of e6.
One of the problems is Hit Points. Most people don't keep track of the Hit point amount they gain at each level. An easy alternate is to add two hit points per hit die increase. So the wizard in the above example would gain four hit points, increasing the max to 10.
Feats would still occur every other level, and ability score adjustment would also increase at 4th (realize that after the first time, it takes 6 levels to increase a score, not 4).
Special abilities would build up, but the power levels would still be lower powered. The number of skills would increase only horizontally, not vertically, and only when a class with higher skill points is taken. And the highest power magic items would still be incredibly limited.
Just a thought. Any input is welcome. :)
The problem here is you then push characters further along the power train. Regardless of your maximum, gestalt characters have higher numbers and greater abilities then their single classed bretheren. The point of E6 was to stop most of the progression at a certain power point. If you allow multiclassing, depending on the multiclass you could end up with significantly more powerful characters. For instance, a 6th level druid, then takes 6 levels of fighter. His combat abilities are now dramatically more then they were as just a druid. Eventually there will be enough abilities stacked on top of eachother that you lose the effect that E6 has, where the players never get to a point where they can just wade through normal folk as if they were nothing, jump head first off buildings and survive etc.
Sure there are still limitations, but overall power could and would still go up. Pets in particular would be an issue.
For instance, a character gets to level 6 in summoner. He has a 6th level summoner. Then he gets to 6th level in druid, he has a 6th level animal companion, then he gets to 6th level in ranger and takes boon companion, he now has himself, with summoner, druid and ranger abilities and 2 animal companions and an eidolon.
Again I dont think its a terrible idea, but it does defeat the purpose of E6. If you dont like advancement stopping, then conceptually E6 isnt a good fit for you, and you need to look at something entirely different.
jump head first off buildings and survive etc.
This could only happen if it could happen in normal e6. HP is still going to be maxed out at 6d12, which any normal 6e barbarian can get.
Sure there are still limitations, but overall power could and would still go up. Pets in particular would be an issue.
For instance, a character gets to level 6 in summoner. He has a 6th level summoner. Then he gets to 6th level in druid, he has a 6th level animal companion, then he gets to 6th level in ranger and takes boon companion, he now has himself, with summoner, druid and ranger abilities and 2 animal companions and an eidolon.
meh, there could be a lot of creatures on the board, I can do worse with a straight summoner. 1d3 wolves + eidolon + other stuff.
...it does defeat the purpose of E6. If you dont like advancement stopping, then conceptually E6 isnt a good fit for you, and you need to look at something entirely different.
I'll agree to disagree. I think it takes care of a lot of the problems people have with the system (Higher level spells, multiple attacks, saving throws through the roof, etc.), while fixing the stagnation involved. The highest BAB is still going to be 6, the highest skill point level is still going to be 6 and the highest level spell is still going to be third, only cast by a fifth level wizard/cleric/witch or sixth level sorcerer/oracle.
So effectively your trying to bring back the older D&D editions dual classing?
Huh, wonder how that would work out for Pathfinder.
In a way. I've never really liked the 3rd edition version of multiclassing. It was one of the things 2ed did great.
I've been thinking about this precise thing. A few tweaks:
1) Make each post 6 level be more XP somehow. Going from needing 10k to only needing another 2 is just awkward. It should either continue to increase or plateau, as it would for feats in E6.
2) Players can only use the abilities of their old class once they've stopped leveling in the new class, i.e. reached level 6. In other words if they began play as a wizard and start taking fighter levels, they are JUST a fighter and lose all wizard class abilities (other than HP, saves, skills, BAB) until they reach 6/6. This also matches how Dual-Classing worked. It also feels like job classes from FF Tactics.
3) No new hit die, just favored class bonuses. So each new level they get 1 HP or 1 Skill Point or some other option.
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I'll agree to disagree. I think it takes care of a lot of the problems people have with the system (Higher level spells, multiple attacks, saving throws through the roof, etc.), while fixing the stagnation involved. The highest BAB is still going to be 6, the highest skill point level is still going to be 6 and the highest level spell is still going to be third, only cast by a fifth level wizard/cleric/witch or sixth level sorcerer/oracle.
Attack bonuses and AC's will continue to rise, particularly when buffed. And HP can sort of rise since I can imagine why anyone would not at some point multiclass into synthesist summoner stacking a layer of temporay hit points on top of what the character has. And while base saves wont go over the max of a 6th level character with a strong save, actual saving throws will go up. Lots of classes have bonuses to saves, either circumstancial(barbarian while raging) or general (paladin with divine favor).
Eventually, though the progression is slower, the PCs will still hit that super hero level of ability that E6 games are meant to gestalt. After all 1st level town guard is hitting that monk, who buffs himself as a cleric AND as a wizard, and as a druid, AND is wearing an eidolon suit. The fighter, ranger, barbarian, who self buffs as a bard, also wont have problems hitting a target (and doing a ton of damage) unless its way above CR 6.
In orderfor NPCs to stay relavent to the PC's respective abilities they have to be gestalt too, escalating the complexity of npcs, driving the dm ever more towards more exotic higher cr monsters, or customized monsters with class levels. You still have the power escalation, its just in a different form, and probably happens at a slightly slower rate after 6th level, but it still defeats the primary purpose of E6, to keep the pcs within the realm of 'reality' in terms of their power.
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I think this approach would work very well for a small E6 party. For a larger party, character roles would be eroded pretty quickly as people dip in everything.
You'll also end up with really complex characters, which may not be to your players' liking.
I'd personally tend towards "M6" (using the mythic rules to extend E6), but E6 really works pretty well right out of the box.
Cheers!
Landon
I considered a rule much like this in the past, but with a twist:
Instead of using the highest BAB, base saves, skill ranks and hit dice you use the average. Once characters have hit the cap they can actually get worse at some things as they level, due to the attention they're giving to other techniques and abilities.
The idea is to discourage players from giving their characters such diverse skill sets, limit the power of characters more than traditional gestalt and increase the number of competitive class combinations.
Wizard gestalt levels will reduce your Fighter's ability to fight, but he'll still be more powerful than a multiclass character of the same level. If he picks another frontliner as his gestalt class, he'll keep his high BAB and d10 hit dice.
I'd personally tend towards "M6" (using the mythic rules to extend E6), but E6 really works pretty well right out of the box.
This is interesting. Thanks for the link!
The problem here is you then push characters further along the power train. Regardless of your maximum, gestalt characters have higher numbers and greater abilities then their single classed bretheren. The point of E6 was to stop most of the progression at a certain power point. If you allow multiclassing, depending on the multiclass you could end up with significantly more powerful characters. For instance, a 6th level druid, then takes 6 levels of fighter. His combat abilities are now dramatically more then they were as just a druid. Eventually there will be enough abilities stacked on top of eachother that you lose the effect that E6 has, where the players never get to a point where they can just wade through normal folk as if they were nothing, jump head first off buildings and survive etc.
Sure there are still limitations, but overall power could and would still go up. Pets in particular would be an issue.
For instance, a character gets to level 6 in summoner. He has a 6th level summoner. Then he gets to 6th level in druid, he has a 6th level animal companion, then he gets to 6th level in ranger and takes boon companion, he now has himself, with summoner, druid and ranger abilities and 2 animal companions and an eidolon.
Again I dont think its a terrible idea, but it does defeat the purpose of E6. If you dont like advancement stopping, then conceptually E6 isnt a good fit for you, and you need to look at something entirely different.
No it doesn't. The purpose of E6 is to prevent access to 4th level spells. This still accomplishes that goal.
Also, gestalt would not let you get two animal companions, you get the best progression of identical class features.
The purpose of E6 for me is capping the power of NPCs in the world, so the fact that I'd have to gestalt all my more powerful NPCs to match the PCs seems like too much work to me.
But it's an interesting idea. I have a few players that might prefer it to straight E6.
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I'd worry it would lead to a homogenisation of characters. I mean at some point you'd end up at some variation of Fighter/Cleric/Wizard/Rogue 6/6/6/6 because that's how improve a weak aspect of a character.
To me, at a certain point an eX game should end so you can avoid too much stagnation.
Yeah that's the other thing, I'm not sure eX lends itself to long spanning campaigns. I wouldn't want to play the same e6 character for 2 years, because after awhile feats can only do so much. But it's a great idea for a bunch of mid-length campaigns that insert new characters and lore into the world through the actions of your characters, since hitting level 6 almost assures that you'll be famous and a major shaker with a little effort.
check out P6 codex
I'd worry it would lead to a homogenisation of characters. I mean at some point you'd end up at some variation of Fighter/Cleric/Wizard/Rogue 6/6/6/6 because that's how improve a weak aspect of a character.
That's what I was getting at with my averaging suggestion. If your average out hit points, saves and BAB, people get to make a meaningful choice about their party role: Keep to your role and retain maximum relevant stats, or expand your range of abilities and get out of practice at your former specialisation.