Mounted Combat Rules (RAI / RAW)

[Daerthalus]

I'll be running a campaign soon, and some of my players have expressed interest in mounted combat. Despite digging through the forums and FAQ, I could not find a clear indication of how mounted combat works. I'm an experienced player and DM of DnD, so I know how to read the rules (RAW). Seems to be that many of the mounted combat rules and feats are contradictory and ambiguous. I'm looking for some help clearing things up in a fair and clear manner (Rules RAI if RAW doesn't make sense).

Here is what I managed to decipher. Please let me know if there is something I've misunderstood.

1 - Actions: The rider and mount have each their own full round worth of actions. The only exception is that the rider cannot move while mounted. He gets the benefit of his mounts movement when it moves.

2 - Charging: The mounts takes a full round action to charge, bringing the rider along as per (1). The riders gets the benefits and penalties of the charge action. Seems to indicate that the mount is charging and the rider is not.

- 2.1Q When using the Spirited Charge feat who's action is used?
RAW: The feat only triggers when the rider takes a charge action, which a mounted character cannot do since he cannot move while mounted. So this feat never triggers!
RAI: I assume that feat triggers when the mount takes the charge action and the rider gets the benefit on his attacks.

- 2.2Q When a mount charges can the rider make full round attack (assuming he has pounce or something that grants a FA on a charge)?
RAW: Pounce says when you charge and in this case you are not taking the charge action, so this seems to indicate that you cannot make a full attack. BUT since charging on a mount grants you the benefits and penalties maybe you do get to use pounce. (For the sake of argument let's assume you are using natural weapons only).

- 2.3Q When using the Ride By Attack feat who's action is used?
RAW: The feats says when mounted and using the charge action you may move, attack and continue moving (in a straight line) after. Once again, you cannot take a charge action on a mount since you cannot move. So this feat can never trigger.
RAI: Should say. When your mount takes the charge action, it may continue moving (in a straight line) after you attack. This movement cannot exceed double your mount's movement.
Does the mount get to make an attack in this case? Should you be able to make more than one attack, provided you had a feat or ability that would allow you to do so? (eg. Mounted Skirmisher)

- 2.4Q How does the Trample Feat work?
RAW: When you attempt to overrun an opponent while mounted, your target may not choose to avoid you. Your mount may make one hoof attack against any target you knock down, gaining the standard +4 bonus on attack rolls against prone targets.
OVERRUN Combat Maneuver: As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square.

Once again another feat that is useless, you cannot take an overrun action while mounted since the overrun action requires you to move or charge, neither of which you can do while mounted. Also, if your mount does not have a hoof it doesn't even get the attack.

RAI: While you are mounted, and your mount attempt to overrun an opponent, the target may not choose to avoid it. Your mount may make one [relevant natural weapon] attack against any target it knocks down, gaining the standard +4 bonus on attack rolls against prone targets.

The issue here is that the mount would provoke an attack of opportunity unless it possessed the Improved Overrun Feat, and if the mount had improved overrun the target would not be able to avoid it anyways. So this feat basically grants your mount a free "relevant natural weapon" attack, and half of the Improved Overrun Feat when it makes an overrun combat maneuver.

- 2.5Q What about Mounted Onslaught?

RAW: On your turn you may overrun more than one creature. Each overrun combat maneuver check beyond the first has a cumulative –5 penalty. If you fail to overrun a target, your movement ends. Your mount may only make a single hoof attack against one target that is knocked prone by your overrun (not one per prone opponent).

This feat doesn't include the restriction of being mounted, so it actually does something. You can overrun move than one person while ON FOOT, but while mounted you are once again subject to being unable to move and thus unable to take the Overrun combat maneuver. Nonetheless from a mounted perspective this feat is yet another feat that does nothing.

RAI: While mounted, on your turn your mount may overrun more than one creature. Each overrun combat maneuver check beyond the first has a cumulative –5 penalty. If your mount fails to overrun a target, its movement ends. Your mount may only make a single [relevant natural weapon] attack against one target that is knocked prone by your overrun (not one per prone opponent0.

Obviously the intention is for your mount to be able to overrun more than once creature while you are mounted on it, and for it to not get more than 1 "hoof" attack out of doing so.

EXAMPLE AND SUMMARY

As per my understanding above (and based on common sense rather than just RAW), a rider with the following feats. Combat Reflexes (5 Dex Modifier), Ride By Attack, Spirited Charge, Trample, Mounted Skirmisher, Mounted Onslaught and all pre req feats, who is mounted on a mount (60ft speed) with Pounce, Combat Reflexes (3 Dex Modifier), Improved Overrun, Greater Overrun, Charge Through, Elephant Stomp and all pre-req feats could do the following.

1 - Have his mount Charge, followed by him taking a Full Round Action (via Mounted Skirmisher).
-- RESULT:
A - Mount charges 30ft, and overruns another target along the way as a free action. (Charge Through)
B - The successful overrun action causes the target to provoke an AoO. Which both mount and rider take.
C - The mount makes a full attack (Pounce).
D - Rider gets the benefit of the charge (+2 Hit/-2 AC) and takes his full round action. Each attack deals double damage due to Spirited Charge (triple when using a lance).
E - Mount continues moving 30ft. (Ride By Attack, 30+ move speed mount)
-- Does this work with a 30ft speed mount? (Note: Skirmisher only works if the mount has moved its speed or less, which at the time of the rider's action it has.)

2 - Have his mount move 30ft and use the overrun combat maneuver against 3 targets along the way, followed by the rider taking a Full Attack Action.
-- RESULT
A - Mount takes a move action and a standard action to use an overrun maneuver. This does not provoke an AoO and the targets cannot chose to avoid it. Assuming the mount is successful it also makes a free "hoof" attack against one of the targets (due to Trample).
B - A successful overrun maneuver causes the first 2 targets to provoke an attack of opportunity (as per Greater Overrun). This does not indicate from who, so I assume both the Rider and Mount may do so. Since both rider and mount have Combat Reflexes they can both make an AoO against the first 2 targets.
C - On the last target the mount having exceeded the targets CMD by 5 or more, chooses to end its movement in front of the target and make a single natural attack as an immediate action, using Elephant Stomp. Since this replaces knocking the target prone, no one gets an AoO.
D - The rider makes a Full Attack against the last target. [Mounted Skirmisher]

3 - Same as 2, but the mount charges rather than moves, elects not to use Elephant Stomp and chooses to use Ride By Attack.
A - Mount takes a full round action to charge electing to use the overrun maneuver. Along the way to his target he overruns 2 other creatures (3 total). This does not provoke an AoO and the targets cannot chose to avoid it. Assuming the mount is successful it also makes a free "hoof" attack against one of the targets (due to Trample).
B - Successful overrun maneuvers causes all 3 targets to provoke an attack of opportunity (as per Greater Overrun). This does not indicate from who, so I assume both the Rider and Mount may do so. Since both rider and mount have Combat Reflexes they can both make an AoO against all 3 targets.
C - The mount cannot make any other attacks since it made an overrun maneuver.
D - The rider makes a Full Attack against the last target. [Mounted Skirmisher]

Please let me know if i'm doing this all wrong. Let reiterate, I'm looking for a fair rules interpretation as close to RAW as possible, while being consistent and non contradictory.

[Eridan]

Wow a lot of text and a lot of questions. I will try to answer in a short way. Most questions occur due to the fact that you dont understand mounted combat. Casting while mounted has his own rules which are descripted under 'Mounted Combat'

1 - Actions
The rider follows his mount. As long as the mount dont move more than 5ft. the rider can perform a full round action. As soon as the mount moves more than 5ft. the rider is limited to a single attack.

Mounted Combat wrote:

If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack.

2 - Charging

The mount uses a full round action to charge and during a charge it moves more than 5ft. The rider benefits from the mounts charge and can do a single attack after the movement.

mounted Combat wrote:

If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge.

Spirited Charge

See 2 and 1. You can do a single attack.

Ride by Attack
See 2 and 1. Your mount charges, you attack and then the mount moves further. Should the mount attack as well it needs the Spring Attack feat.

Trample and Mounted Onslaught are unclear but i would use the Universal Monster Rules for the trample special ability. This rule is written in the same way as the Eidolons ability. I am with you that 'a single [relevant natural weapon] attack' is a better description for the attack.

[Gherrick]

Color me confused. I thought the rider did the charge, not the mount. The mount just provided the movement speed. That was how I understood the rules, and I agree they are about as clear as mud on whether the rider or mount benefits from having those feats.

[Eridan]

The rider shares the movement with the mount. So the mount must charge. If the mount charges also the rider gets the charging bonus/penalty. Both can do an attack in that round. The mount because it charges and the rider because he can 'make a single melee attack' if the mount moves more than 5ft. in that round.

Mounted Combat wrote:

.. If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full attack. Even at your mount's full speed, you don't take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted.

If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge).

You can not pounce because you dont charge. The mount charges and you get the bonus/penalty too.

Pounce wrote:

Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack

'Mounted Combat' follows 'Grapple' on my hate list :)

[Ruggs]

I've posted these before, but. I would love to see this article updated for Pathfinder:

Rules of the Game: All About Mounts, pt 1
Rules of the Game: All About Mounts, pt 2
Rules of the Game: All About Mounts, pt 3
Rules of the Game: All About Mounts, pt 4
Rules of the Game: All About Mounts, pt 5

It was written by Skip Williams back in the day and as you can see, is fairly extensive.

Anyone want to take a stab at it? Streamline it?

[Michael Sayre]

I have a link from SKR I'll bring into this momentarily, but:
The designers have made it very clear that when charging on a mount, the mount is using the charge action, not you. So mounted feats that reference charging are always referring to the character attacking from the back of a charging mount. Rider and mount still maintain separate pools of actions, just like a druid and their animal companion.

For reference:

SKR says "If YOU are mounted, the MOUNT is making the charge, YOU are NOT making a charge".

A breakdown of the action economy involved with various references

SKR explains how Ride-by Attack and Spring Attack work with mounted combat

James Jacobs explains that feats referencing taking the charge action while mounted are referring to attacking from the back of a charging mount

[Evil Lincoln]

Dot.

I recently parsed the raw myself and came to some interesting conclusions. I will reread the OP in depth and respond at a later time.

EDIT: If I remember reading Sean's Spring Attack post a long while ago, he sort of implies the mount can attack on a ride-by if it has spring attack. This is not actually possible, because the mount cannot spring attack and charge. So, mounted combat aficionados take note, you can ride-by and your mount can attack someone else at the end of movement, or your mount can spring attack and you can attack at the end of movement (but not charge). Never both.

Fun fact: You need Ride-by attack to mounted charge with a lance at all if your mount doesn't have reach. :(

[Michael Sayre]

Of further note-
If the character took Mounted Skirmisher (the only way to make a melee full attack if your mount moves more than 5 feet), he could full attack from the back of his charging mount, but only the first attack in the sequence would gain the charge benefits per the FAQ on Ragelancepounce. "...even if you have an unusual combination of rules that allows you to ignore the above limitation, it doesn’t makes sense that those iterative attacks gain the damage bonus. To make that second attack, you have to pull the lance back and stab forward again, and that stab doesn’t have the benefit of the charge’s momentum. (The Core Rulebook doesn’t state that you only get the damage multiplier on the first attack with a lance because when the Core Rulebook was published, there was no way for a PC to charge and get multiple attacks with a weapon in the same round, so that combination didn’t need to be addressed.)"

[Michael Sayre]

Evil Lincoln wrote:

EDIT: If I remember reading Sean's Spring Attack post a long while ago, he sort of implies the mount can attack on a ride-by if it has spring attack. This is not actually possible, because the mount cannot spring attack and charge. So, mounted combat aficionados take note, you can ride-by and your mount can attack someone else at the end of movement, or your mount can spring attack and you can attack at the end of movement (but not charge). Never both.

I don't believe SKR actually says that you can use the two together (linked in my first post above for reference) but people were reading it that way. What was intended was that you can either use Ride-by Attack to attack and move, or your mount can use Spring Attack to attack and move.

You don't actually have to have Ride-by Attack to attack with a lance from the back of a charging mount. You can attack as soon as you are in range and your attack ends the mount's charge, 5 feet from your opponent. You just have to have the clear line of effect for your mount to initiate the charge. Mounted combat is the entire reason that the rules for charging say you "may" make an attack at the end of your charge, instead of "must" or just "then you make...". They're worded to make the attack at the end optional specifically to accomodate mounted combat.

[Evil Lincoln]

Ssalarn wrote:

You don't actually have to have Ride-by Attack to attack with a lance from the back of a charging mount. You can attack as soon as you are in range and your attack ends the mount's charge, 5 feet from your opponent. You just have to have the clear line of effect for your mount to initiate the charge. Mounted combat is the entire reason that the rules for charging say you "may" make an attack at the end of your charge, instead of "must" or just "then you make...". They're worded to make the attack at the end optional specifically to accomodate mounted combat.

Yes, and I believe that is the rule's intention.

But in order to charge, there are very strict rules about where the mount may end it's movement relative to the target of the charge. "You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent."

We're deep into pedantry here; of course nobody should play it this way. The whole thing could be a lot simpler and the game would be better for it.

[Evil Lincoln]

Ssalarn wrote:

I don't believe SKR actually says that you can use the two together (linked in my first post above for reference) but people were reading it that way. What was intended was that you can either use Ride-by Attack to attack and move, or your mount can use Spring Attack to attack and move.

Agreed. I don't think Sean meant to imply it, he just didn't unambiguously rebuke the idea. Some other posters called it out, and asked for clarification which never came (I'm going from memory here). I'm pretty sure they're right though.

Ride-by Attack and a mount's Spring-Attack are an either-or proposition. Pity it's too specialized to make a nice capstone feat for the mounted chains. Maybe if it gave the mount spring attack it would be worth it.

[Michael Sayre]

Evil Lincoln wrote:

Yes, and I believe that is the rule's intention.

But in order to charge, there are very strict rules about where the mount may end it's movement relative to the target of the charge. "You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent."

We're deep into pedantry here; of course nobody should play it this way. The whole thing could be a lot simpler and the game would be better for it.

Right, it falls back into that unfortunate ambiguity to the phrasing of charge abilities and how they interact with Mounted Combat. Fortunately there's a pretty big pile of clarifications and dev commentary to sort out how it should work :)